Richard Imamura interview

>> Carlene Tinker: Good afternoon, Mr. Imamura. >> Richard Imamura: Good afternoon. >> Carlene Tinker: How are you doing? >> Richard Imamura: Just fine, thank you. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, well, I want to welcome you to the Special Collections Research Center at Fresno State. My name is Carlene Tanigoshi Tinker, and I'm a volunteer here at the center. And [the reason] why I've invited you today to be interviewed, we are endeavoring to enlarge our collection on Japanese Americans in the San Joaquin Valley, and, of course, in the United States. So that's what we're going to do. We're going to find out about you, your family and how you've become a part of the San Joaquin Valley, okay? >> Richard Imamura: Absolutely. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and today is Tuesday, December 12th, 2017. And the time is 2:20 p.m. As I said, the Special Collections Center has this very vast collection of oral interviews, oral histories, and that's what we're going to contribute to. Presently, there are about 150 of these interviews that are available for researchers and the public. And these all are online. So the way we became familiar with your family was to have seen an obituary about your father, Mr. Haruo Imamura, who was a very important community member, not only because of the Fresno Judo Club, but also because he was an integral part of the Physical Education Department here at Fresno state. Isn't that correct? >> Richard Imamura: That is correct. >> Carlene Tinker: And so correct. Okay, so can you tell me just briefly something about your dad? Did he actually come from Japan, or was he from the United States? >> Richard Imamura: My father was born in Japan, and he was born in 1933, so before World War II, and his father was actually a policeman, and he was raised in Korea, because at the time, Japan occupied Korea, and my father grew up in Korea as a young child. He had a brother, and his brother, at a very--at infancy, passed away, along with his mother, my dad's mother of I believe it was some sort of sickness. So he lost his little brother and his mother at a very young age. And so he actually, actually as the war ended, because Communism was taking over Korea, they had to evacuate, and eventually ended up back in Japan with his father. And his father remarried a Japanese woman who he later got to know as his--the mom that raised him. And from that point, he started doing Judo, mostly to fend off kids that would tease him and give him a hard time, because growing up in Korea, it was a little bit different than the rest of the Japanese boys, so he started doing Judo at a very young age, I think it was 12, and from that point, he really progressed. I think it was more of his way out was developing his skills in Judo, because it actually got him a scholarship to a start-up university that's called Tenri University, and it's close to Osaka and Nara. And he became a--he was actually a recruit. The first team captain of Tenri University in an up-start Judo program. After a few years starting that program, they actually won a national title, and since they haven't looked back, because they've won numerous national titles, and they're known as a major Judo university in Japan, which has, I believe, developed many Olympic players as well. So he was pretty much the start of all that. And once he took Tenri to national fame and world fame, he actually moved, or actually, after they graduate, a lot of the Judoists were asked to go teach Judo in different areas, even internationally. And because my father had been part of a tour after his college career as an all star Judo team, he was able to go to Hawaii, California, as part of a tour, and actually went to Fresno. So when he came back to Japan, went back to Japan, he decided that he was going to teach Judo in the United States. He liked Fresno so much that he picked Fresno as his spot. And that's when he came to the U.S. I believe it was 1958 or so. >> Carlene Tinker: 1958. I'm very ignorant of what Judo is. Do you want to describe what the sport is? I guess you'd call it a sport. What is Judo? >> Richard Imamura: Judo is basically a sport, and it was derived from the martial art Jujutsu. And basically, the art is self-defense, and it uses your opponent's force in your favor, so you learn to manipulate your opponents' actions to your favor. And that's what Jujutsu is. And Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, what he did is he took the form of Jujutsu and made it into a sport form. That was a sport. You can't really use a martial art because it's very dangerous because a lot of things that you do in martial arts are dangerous. And what he did, he decided to remove the dangerous portions of the sport and modify it and apply it to rules and develop the sport of Judo. >> Carlene Tinker: I see. I see. Now, you mentioned that he was highly regarded, he earned a lot of honors. I think when you receive honors in these kinds of sports, you get belts, is that true? >> Richard Imamura: That's correct. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, do you want to explain what a belt is? And I know they're different colors and different levels, is that correct? >> Richard Imamura: That's correct. Basically, the color of belts indicates your progression in Judo and your development and your skills. And it starts out as a white belt. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Richard Imamura: And yellow belt is the next step. Orange belt, green belt, blue belt, purple belt. Then the next step would be brown belt. And brown belt has three degrees. It's third degree, which is initial, next would be second degree, and first degree is the highest rank of the brown belt. Then once you pass the brown belt, you go into black belt. And that goes from one, first degree, second, third, fourth, fifth, and so on. And I don't believe anybody, especially under the [inaudible], has ever reached anything past 10th degree.>> Carlene Tinker: Past the what degree? >> Richard Imamura: 10th degree. >> Carlene Tinker: But now, your father, didn't he receive the 9th degree? >> Richard Imamura: That's correct. He received the 9th degree. I believe it was 2008, I believe. >> Carlene Tinker: Wow. >> Richard Imamura: 2007 or 2008. And he was one of the few 9th degrees in the United States. And he was--we were actually trying to get him another promotion to 10th degree. But unfortunately he passed away in September. >> Carlene Tinker: Now, I presume that in order to progress through these different levels and get these different degrees at each level, you have to participate in tournaments or contests, is that correct, is that how you get the--? >> Richard Imamura: Yes, there are many different ways to get promoted, but primarily it's because--primarily to get promoted, especially if you're younger, is to compete. And that would be the best way to show your ability in what you're learning and how you devote your skills. So competing is very, very integral part of getting promoted at an early age. As you get older and you no longer compete, a lot of it is how much time you put into the sport, as far as teaching, and also developing your skills and kata, which is forms, and just basically how much time you put into the sport. >> Carlene Tinker: I see. I see. Well, getting back to your dad, now, he learned the sport and he was very [inaudible] reached a very high level of proficiency, and he decided to come back to Fresno after he returned to Japan, is that correct? >> Richard Imamura: That's correct. >> Carlene Tinker: Now, he decided at that time he was going to just teach Judo, but didn't he have another occupation before that? What did he get actually trained for? >> Richard Imamura: Well, actually, he wanted to do two things when he came to the United States. He wanted to teach Judo and also learn English. And he went to city college and he learned English. And also he eventually got a job at or actually Bank of Tokyo. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Richard Imamura: And Bank of Tokyo eventually turned into California First Bank, and then later Union Bank. So it currently exists today. And he started at the Chinatown branch in Fresno, yeah, at the Bank of Tokyo, which is now known as Union Bank. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. Coincidentally, my parents used to bank [there], yeah. I didn't realize the tradition there, yeah. So let's talk about your mom briefly. Your mom, is she from Japan? >> Richard Imamura: She actually was born here, but her parents were from Japan, and they were from the Wakayama Prefecture of Japan. >> Carlene Tinker: Now, what prefecture or city was your dad from? >> Richard Imamura: My father was from a little town called Tamana. And that is close to Kumamoto. And those that don't know Kumamoto is close to Fukuoka which is a major city in Kyushu, which is a southern island of Japan. >> Carlene Tinker: Right, okay, so your mom's family came from Wakayama, but she herself was born here. What city was she born in? >> Richard Imamura: She was born in Dinuba. >> Carlene Tinker: Dinuba. >> Richard Imamura: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, what brought her parents to the United States? >> Richard Imamura: You know, that's a good question. I don't know. But I know that her parent owned a little ranch out in Dinuba. And they were very integral in bringing or actually helping Japanese who had come to the United States because initially you don't have anyplace to stay or any money and--or very little, so a lot of times the immigrants from Japan would come to my grandfather's ranch and they would, you know, provide for them and help them get on their feet so they can adapt to the new environment. >> Carlene Tinker: Right. Now, so in terms of generations, you know that terms Issei, Nisei, Sansei, what do you consider yourself in? >> Richard Imamura: Well, that's a tough one because it's not that clean because my father would be an Issei because he's first generation and my mom would be a Nisei, so I couldn't be a Nisei because my mom was. But not correctly a Sansei because, you know, my dad was an Issei. So I would say that would be a Nisei point five, I guess. >> Carlene Tinker: Now, did your mother work when she--well, first of all, how did she marry, meet your dad? >> Richard Imamura: My mom, since she was from the valley, she pretty knew pretty much all the stuff that went along with the Japanese community. She was very into Japanese classical dance. But just like any other child, most of the Japanese-American children growing up there today, she took Japanese school to learn Japanese. And I believe my father, when she was taking Japanese lessons, was an instructor, a Japanese teacher at the Sunday school of the Buddhist church. So I think she spied him while she was going to school, Japanese school, and then later found out that he was a Judo champion, and I think she saw him in the paper and said, you know what? That's my target. I'm going after him. So she was able to arrange a meeting with my father, and, of course, my father intended to go back to Japan, but once he met my mom, that's all she wrote. He wasn't leaving after that. >> Carlene Tinker: So how much younger was your mother than your dad? >> Richard Imamura: Eight years. >> Carlene Tinker: Eight years. >> Richard Imamura: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Now, since she was in Dinuba, how old would she be now if she were still alive? >> Richard Imamura: So if she were still alive today, she would be 70, let's see, 76. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, 76, okay. So she actually, I would assume she went to a relocation camp. >> Richard Imamura: Yes, I believe she was sent with her family when she was a baby to Poston, Arizona. >> Carlene Tinker: To Poston. And where is that? >> Richard Imamura: Arizona. >> Carlene Tinker: Arizona. >> Richard Imamura: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, did she ever talk about being in a relocation camp? >> Richard Imamura: She did, but because she didn't know much, it was mostly secondhand from what other people said, because she was so young that she didn't remember much about the camps. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, what did her parents do besides--well, they had a farm. And when they went to camp, do you have any idea what they did in camp? >> Richard Imamura: No, I don't know. I feel bad that I did not, you know, find this information out. But as a younger child, you don't really think of those things, you know? >> Carlene Tinker: And I'm like you, I was only three when I went into a camp. And for the records, just to explain, the relocation camp was established away from the west coast to harbor enemy people, right, at that time, the enemy was Japanese-Americans, and so I went to Colorado, and that's where I was. But there are two of these relocation camps in California, Tule Lake and Manzanar, yeah. But the rest of them were inland, yeah. So--But she never talked about it. And consequently, that's the same for me, you know? I was too young. And only recently have I started learning about my history. Okay, so your mom was into dancing, classical Japanese dancing. And did she perform? >> Richard Imamura: Oh, often, yes, she did. She had an instructor from Los Angeles, and they were part of the Sanjo [phonetic] Dance Club. And she had been doing that ever since she was a girl, a little girl. >> Carlene Tinker: In your family, how many children did she have, did your mom and dad have? >> Richard Imamura: Four. >> Carlene Tinker: Four. >> Richard Imamura: Four boys. >> Carlene Tinker: Four boys, okay. Where are you in the birth order? >> Richard Imamura: I'm number two, second, second son. >> Carlene Tinker: Who's older than you? >> Richard Imamura: I have a brother named Robert and a younger brother named Rodney and a baby brother named Randy. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and are you all involved in Judo also? >> Richard Imamura: Oh, yes. I think that was a requirement in order to grow up in our household. You had to do Judo. >> Carlene Tinker: What would your dad do if you didn't? >> Richard Imamura: You know, well, I think in our house, there really wasn't too much--I remember my brother, because he was older than me, so he started before me. And I remember the city college was the first spot of the Judo club when I was growing up, Fresno Judo club, when I started was at City College. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, is that right? >> Richard Imamura: And there was a long hallway to go into the gym to where we were practicing. And I remember my brother kicking and screaming saying I don't want to do it, I don't want to do it. But, you know, there was no choice in the matter, and he was made to do Judo. And luckily, there were other students in the class that made my brother feel really comfortable, and, you know, after that, things were fine.>> Carlene Tinker: So you actually started at City College before you came here, is that right? >> Richard Imamura: Yes, well, the club was located at Fresno City College, yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so your dad was an immigrant. He came from--I can't remember the name of the town. >> Richard Imamura: Tamana. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and your mom's family came from Wakayama-ken, alright, so then they met in Dinuba, okay, and your mom was a student of Japanese language, and she had her eye on your dad. >> Richard Imamura: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: How old were they when they got married? Do you have any idea? >> Richard Imamura: I think my mom would have been 21, I believe. >> Carlene Tinker: And then your dad being eight years older than her, 29. >> Richard Imamura: Yeah, 29. >> Carlene Tinker: Now, did they live in Dinuba, or did they move to Fresno? >> Richard Imamura: By that time, they had moved to Fresno, I believe. >> Carlene Tinker: Had all four of you boys been born by that time? >> Richard Imamura: By brother was born the same year that my parents got married, so in 1962. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and then what is your birthday? >> Richard Imamura: I was born in 1964. >> Carlene Tinker: And where were you born? >> Richard Imamura: Actually, we lived in Fresno, but I was born in Dinuba because my mother's doctor was in Dinuba. >> Carlene Tinker: I see. >> Richard Imamura: That's where I was born. >> Carlene Tinker: And Richard, what is your full name?>> Richard Imamura: My full name, just like all my brothers, we have an English first name and a Japanese middle name. And my Japanese middle name is Mamoru. >> Carlene Tinker: Say it again. >> Richard Imamura: Mamoru. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and then your last name. >> Richard Imamura: Imamura. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and so I think you are 53 years old. >> Richard Imamura: That's correct. >> Carlene Tinker: And where have you lived the longest? >> Richard Imamura: Fresno. I never, never left Fresno. >> Carlene Tinker: Is that right? >> Richard Imamura: I did, the longest stint I've done out of Fresno is basically when I went to train at Tsukuba University when I was in college. I took at little hiatus from Fresno State to go train at Tsukuba to develop my skills better in Judo. And that was about four or five months. >> Carlene Tinker: I was going to ask you how long that was. Now, we were talking the other day about when you grew up in Fresno, you didn't really experience prejudice and/or discrimination, am I remembering correctly? >> Richard Imamura: You know, actually, the prejudice and discrimination was more of being Asian. Because Asians weren't, in my school, there was a handful. In my grade, maybe three or four of us. And so it wasn't necessarily Japanese discrimination, but it was more of Asian discrimination I'd say in general. And a lot of it was teasing. Nothing serious, but just teasing. >> Carlene Tinker: You weren't ever bullied or pummeled? Of course, you were a Judoist. >> Richard Imamura: You know what? We used to do Judo demonstrations at the school with my father. So just from the demonstrations, I think the children actually thought that we were really tough, tough kids, so they never really bothered us at all. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, I think you had an advantage. >> Richard Imamura: You know, there's two things that made getting into scuffles or getting, you know, picked on, bullied. One was doing Judo, just by the mere fact that they think you do Judo, they think that, oh, I don't want to touch this guy. But also, we were also very low key type people. We didn't--my brothers and I were always easy going and not much into causing problems at all. >> Carlene Tinker: Now, when we talked the other day, you did mention that you did experience prejudice and discrimination when you were in Japan, is that correct? >> Richard Imamura: Yeah, you know, you realize, or you think that because--we went to, you know, you go to a university there, and because your father had been there and was born and went to the university, that you would, you know, get special treatment. But that special treatment actually happened, but it only happened when my father was around. Whenever he left, you know, even as [being] Japanese, with Japanese blood, pure Japanese blood, you're looked at as a foreigner because you were born in another country. >> Carlene Tinker: Is that right? >> Richard Imamura: Yeah, so Japanese are very--a little different in that regard. They really try to isolate their culture. >> Carlene Tinker: Is that right? >> Richard Imamura: Pretty much, yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Now, I haven't spent very much time in Japan, but what little experience I have had is sort of what you're describing, yeah. So basically growing up in Fresno was not a problem. Where did you go to elementary school and middle school and high school? >> Richard Imamura: I went to Dailey Elementary School, which is located close to Palm and Shields. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Richard Imamura: And I went there, and after I left Dailey and went to Hamilton Junior High School. And then as a freshman, that's when desegregation occurred, and they started busing kids all over the place. And they actually made Hamilton a freshman-only school. So I was the first year that freshman-only campus was created at Hamilton. And the seventh and eighth were sent to other schools, like Wawona and Cooper. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Richard Imamura: But Hamilton was known as a freshman school. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, okay. >> Richard Imamura: And then after that, I moved onto Fresno High School. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and did you participate in Judo there? Was there a Judo?>> Richard Imamura: There is no Judo--any Judo connected with high school, junior high school and elementary, not in California. >> Carlene Tinker: Not even today? >> Richard Imamura: Not even today, no. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so when you went to college, where did you go to college? >> Richard Imamura: Fresno State. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so you are an alumnus of Fresno State. And your father taught here for years, and you're continuing to teach in his place. >> Richard Imamura: That's correct. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so you mentioned City College and Judo. What was that again? >> Richard Imamura: That's where we practiced. Our club used the wrestling room at Fresno City College for many years. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, now, here at Fresno State, where do you have your class and where do you practice? >> Richard Imamura: Actually, right now, because I wasn't aware of it, but a lot of the club activities at Fresno State, a lot of them don't even occur on campus. Yeah, I guess just facilities are at a premium here. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, I see. >> Richard Imamura: So we aren't able to practice on campus. But I teach the kinesiology Judo class in the south gym usually two days a week. This semester, it was Tuesday and Thursday. But the club practices off campus at Fresno Judo Club. >> Carlene Tinker: And where is that? >> Richard Imamura: And that's located close to 99, Val

Rumiko Arakawa interview

1 >> Carlene Tinker: [Audio issues] Good morning, Mrs. Arakawa. My name is Carlene Tinker, Carlene Tanigoshi Tinker. And I'm a volunteer at the Special Collections Research Center at Fresno State Henry Madden Library. I am working for Ms. Tammy Lau, who is the director. And she has an oral history project called the “San Joaquin— the Japanese-Americans in the San Joaquin Valley during World War II.” And so, another person and I, Dr. Howard Ono, and I were interested in volunteering to get more interviews for this particular oral history project. So, that's why I've asked you to participate in this interview today. We're meeting in my house at 4553 East Alamos, Fresno, California. It's Friday, August 25, 2017. Both Dr. Howard Ono and I were internees ourselves, of relocation camps, just like yourself. And because of that experience, although we were young and so were you young, we do have some memories and some experiences that we wanted to share with others and hear what others had—like yourself, had. So, that's why we're doing our part in this oral history project. Let's see here, So, what you're going to do today is to share some experiences and memories about your family, your time in relocation camp, and then what happened to you after World War II. Okay? Do you have any questions? >> Rumiko Arakawa: No. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. So, before we start, let's talk about, or let me have you give me your full name including your maiden name. >> Rumiko Arakawa: Okay. My name is [audio issues] Rumiko Lucian and my maiden name is [Rumiko] Sakow Arakawa. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. That's fine. And then your birthdate? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Eleventh—November 12, 1940. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And where were you born Rumi? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Fresno, California. >> Carlene Tinker: And what is your longest, what address were you at the longest? Either in Fresno or other cities?2 >> Rumiko Arakawa: Oh, during my life? >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Rumiko Arakawa: Well, I would say it’s my current address here in Fresno. Here in Fresno we've been there 43 years. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And what is that address? >> Rumiko Arakawa: That's 705 East Magill, Fresno, California. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And that's near what intersection? >> Rumiko Arakawa: uh, First and Herndon. >> Carlene Tinker: First and Herndon. Okay. Now, I think when we talked earlier, you explained the derivation of your maiden name, Sakow. Because when I looked at the spelling, it had a “w” at the end, which is kind of unusual. Is that true? >> Rumiko Arakawa: True. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Do you want to explain how that “w” got attached? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Okay. My—my father, who’s very— was very literate and he had a bachelor's degree in English literature from Japan. And from the Ryukoku [phonetic] University in Japan. But anyway, he says that our name was started a thousand years ago and originally our family were sake makers. And so, if you read the character of our name, it’s sake, it's the character for sake and then the next character is to be born from or to live. And so, originally it would have been pronounced Sakon, S-A-K-O-N. But eventually just dropped the “n” and it became Sako. But when my parents came to America in 1934, my father said there were a lot of Sakos. But none of them were written in the character of our last name. There's different forms 3 and they were spelled S-A-K-O. So, he wanted to make sure it was a different Sako, so he puts on a “w”. I don't know why he put the w on. But like he was saying, we found out that in New York City there are pages and pages of Sakow's S-A-K-O-Ws, but they are shortened forms of “Sakowski” and “Sakowitz” [ Laughter ] And so, that's the why my father put the “w” on to our name. Differentiate from the other Japanese S-A-K-Os. >> Carlene Tinker: You know, recollecting our conversation before, your father seemed like a really kind of funny guy. You know, he was very interesting to say the least. >> Rumiko Arakawa: If you met him, you wouldn't think that. >> Carlene Tinker: Also, why don't you give me your father's name and how he Americanized it. >> Rumiko Arakawa: Okay. His first name is Shoshu. But—It sounds like S-H-O-S-H-U. But when he came to America, he Anglicized it and he made it S-H-A-W-S-H-E-W, which throws off a lot of people. And the reason he made it S-H-A-W is like he liked English literature. He liked Robert Louis, no, that's skinny. He liked Shaw. So, he made it S-H-A-W-S-H-E-W. And it looked like it would be pronounced Shawshew. [ Laughter ] >> Carlene Tinker: Where did the S-H-E-W come from? >> Rumiko Arakawa: I guess he thought that sounded like “shu”. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh. Okay. That wasn't after a famous author? >> Rumiko Arakawa: No. >> Carlene Tinker: [Laughter] Okay. And then you, what was your mom’s maiden name? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Sasaki, Sasaki. Her first name is Masako, M-A-S-A-K-O. and Sasaki, which is a very common name. S-A-S-A-K-I.4 >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And then Sakow, S-A-K-O-W, was her married name. >> Rumiko Arakawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Now, going back to your name, Rumiko. What is your middle name again? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Lucian. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Now how did he give you that name? Or how did . . . >> Rumiko Arakawa: Okay. Like my father liked Robert Louis Stevenson. And so, he found the name Rumiko, I don't know where he found it. It wasn't that common a name when I was born. It's more common now. But, and then Sakow. And then he wanted an L. But he didn't want Lucy, Linda, or common names. So, he found Lucian. And I asked my father, I said, "Papa, where did you get this Lucian? I think it's a man's name." And he said, “Yes, it is a man's name." He says, "He was reading a novel and there was a priest by the name of Father Lucian. A French priest by the name of Father Lucian." So, he says, okay, that's a Lucian. What can you do with that name? >> Carlene Tinker: Is that the French spelling, L-U-C-I-A-N? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Well, there's many versions of it. There is an L-U-C-I-E-N also but I don't know where he got that. I don't where but he must have seen that in the novel he was reading. It was written that way. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, isn't that something. Well, he sounded like a very educated and literate man. Because he was familiar with all these famous authors. >> Rumiko Arakawa: Oh, he loved to read. Yeah, he loved to read. I caught him one time reading this thick book. And I looked at it and right next to him, he had his Japanese-English dictionary. And it was War and Peace in English. And so, he wanted to make sure he knew precise words. If there were words that he didn't know he would look it up.5 >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and so he was very literate and he read a lot throughout his whole life. >> Rumiko Arakawa: Right, right. >> Carlene Tinker: What kind of . . . Okay, Rumi. I hope it's okay if I address you as Rumi? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Or do you want Rumiko? >> Rumiko Arakawa: No, it's fine. >> Carlene Tinker: So, we're going to break this up into three parts. The first part I'm going to ask you about your grandparents, them coming over. Your parents coming to the United States. Then we'll talk about camp. And then we'll talk about after camp. Okay? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Okay. >> Carlene Tinker: So, first of all, let's talk about your grandparents. You have kind of two different stories, as I recall. Because one set came to the United States, is that correct, and then went back to Japan? Is that right? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Yes. He visited. >> Carlene Tinker: Who was that? >> Rumiko Arakawa: That's my maternal grandfather. My mother's father. He traveled all around the world. I mean, back in the . . . we're talking about the late 1890s and the early 1900s. I think, I heard that he got as far as Europe from Japan. But he was the first Buddhist minister to go into Canada. The Buddhists had already come into the United States through San Francisco. 6 But he went into Canada in about 1905. And I think he took his family. Because my mother’s—my mother and her two older sisters were all born in Vancouver, Canada. >> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned. >> Rumiko Arakawa: So, when he—when they shortly got there, shortly after in 1905, the first of my aunts— older aunts were born there. And then my second aunt was born about 1907. And then my mother was born in 1909. So, all three of those girls were born in Vancouver. And then my uncle was the oldest one. The only boy. He was born in Japan. So, he must have been about maybe two-years-old when the three of them. . . >> Carlene Tinker: When they came to Vancouver? Okay. Now did they stay in Vancouver or did they go back to Japan? >> Rumiko Arakawa: They must have been there between 1905 and I think they went back in about 1912. So, he established the Buddhist Church in the first Canadian Buddhist Church in Vancouver. >> Carlene Tinker: But in Japan, he was carrying on the tradition of Buddhist priests in that side of the family? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Yes. Both sides of my family, my maternal side and my father's side—uh, my maternal and paternal side, have been Buddhist ministers, the Jodo Shinshu Buddhist ministers for the last, like I think, my father must have been the 26th generation. And my grandfather must have the same, 26th generation. So, it went back about 600 years. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Now I'm showing my ignorance. Was that the beginning of Buddhism in Japan? Or had there been other priests before that? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Oh, there were other Jodo Shinshu, I mean there other sects of Buddhism that came over from China through Korea. Most of Japanese culture and most of the people, more or less, [audio issues] came through Korea. So, our Korean language and the Japanese language, if you listen to them speaking, it almost sounds the same. It's not the sing-song of the Chinese language. But I can't understand Korean. But it sounds like Japanese.7 >> Carlene Tinker: Is Korean tonal like Chinese? Is Japanese tonal? >> Rumiko Arakawa: No. No. It doesn't have the, like the Chinese language, I hear there is something like nine different tones. And if you say the word, the syllable “wa”, you can say it nine different ways and it means nine different things. Japanese and Korean are more or less fairly. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, I kind of remember the word for hashi, chopsticks. Is that right? If you say it a different way, or different tone, what does it mean afterwards? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Different accent, it could mean bridge. >> Carlene Tinker: Bridge. Okay. Why do I think . . . I think because my maiden name something sounds like that. Tanigoshi [phonetic]. It's not hashi, but someone said that my maiden name meant something to do with a bridge. >> Rumiko Arakawa: Goshi. I don't know. It could be boshi or hashi. The variations. >> Carlene Tinker: I don't really… Yeah, yeah. That's fascinating. Well, how many different sects are there of Buddhism? >> Rumiko Arakawa: I don't know, all together. But our Jodo Shinshu Buddhism was started by Shinran Shonin. And that was back in the 1200s. >> Carlene Tinker: Twelve-hundreds? Okay. And is that what's currently predominant now in Japan? How many sects are there? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Oh, there's many, many sects. There's the Zen, and then there's all the different variations of the Zen. And then the Jodo, even within the Jodo Shinshu they've splintered and broken down. But the one that was brought to the United States is basically Jodo Shinshu. Most of the temples that are here and the Buddhist churches of America is based on the Jodo Shinshu sect of and then our headquarters is in Kyoto, in Hongan-ji [phonetic].8 >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Now getting back, this was, you just told us about your mother's side. Right? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Mmm-mm. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. So they went to Vancouver, went back to Japan around 1912, you think. Is that correct? Okay. What about your Dad's side? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Okay, my Dad’s side. My father—my paternal grandfather was uh, I think, his older brother, his older brother was supposed to take over the temple but he, I think he got a PhD or something like that and he was more into other things. So, he left. He, he said he didn't want to take over. So, eventually it came down to my father. My father and… No, that was his uncle. That was his uncle that left. And his father[Rumi’s paternal grandfather] had to take over as the minister. But he was an alcoholic and he died at the age of 42. And so, after that he [Rumi’s father] was being… I think, he was raised by my mother and father [who] are first cousins. And in Japan, first cousins that are children of a brother and sister, is okay. But a brother and brother's children cousins are no, no. And the sister and sister is a no, no. But brother and sister children can marry. So, anyway my father was, . . . >> Carlene Tinker: Is that still true today, do you think? Do a lot first cousins marry? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Ah, I think it's not maybe not as prevalent. I think it might still happen. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Okay, go ahead. >> Rumiko Arakawa: But my father had a choice of well, he, he graduated from college, he was pretty smart. And he graduated from college with an English literature major at age 19. And he started teaching in a girl's high school. Well, he's 19 and his students are 18. And so they said, “ooh, that could cause hanky-panky” So, they said, “we better get him at least engaged.” You know, so that, he still is sort of responsible that he's not going to fool around. So, anyway he was given a choice of three girls to pick from to become engaged to. And one was not related to him. And then the other two was my mother and her older sister.9 >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Rumiko Arakawa: Well, the older sister is the same age my father. And she's very headstrong, pretty strong lady. So, he said “no” to her. And he said “no” to the other lady. And then he said he'll take the younger one. She's a little quiet and pliable. So, he got engaged to her. And she was only like 15. Because there is [background noise] a four years difference. And so, they weren't planning to get married until later. >> Carlene Tinker: Did your mom know about this? >> Rumiko Arakawa: No, my mother, you know, in those days, they're not told anything. And she’s in school—in high school. And barely in high school. And one day, she's in school and another aunt came and said, “oh, we’re gunna— I want to take you and have you accompany me to go into Kyoto” which is about a train ride away. “And we're going to go shopping.” And so, my mother said, “oh sure” to get out of school. [ Laughter ] So, she goes with her aunt and they land in Kyoto. And lo and behold, my father's there. And then my—that Auntie says, "Masako, stay with Shoshu. And I have errands to do. So, he'll show you around here." And so she says okay. This is her cousin that she more or less grew up with because he was most of the time living with them while he was growing up because his father had passed away. His mother was—his mother was, they were divorced very shortly after. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, so he didn't have any natural parents to live with. So, he came to live . . . >> Rumiko Arakawa: Yeah, yeah , yeah so, after his father passed away and his grandmother passed away. You know he—my mother's family sort of raised him. It would be his auntie, my [Grand] father's [pause] sister, ah his auntie. His paternal auntie. So, she says “okay” and then, so, I never thought of my father as a romantic. He was very quiet, very you know—always reading. So, my mother says, he takes her out to this, rents a boat, then rows out to the middle of this lake. And then he proposes to her. And she doesn't know, it's coming out of the blue. And she says “I didn't know what to do. I'm only 14[15] years old. I couldn't jump off the boat. I'm in the middle of the lake.” Had nowhere to go, so she says, “okay.” [Laughter] and then she… >> Carlene Tinker: She wanted to make sure she made it back to shore. >> Rumiko Arakawa: Yeah, so, so they go back and she goes back home. By the time she gets back to school. All the kids already know [inaudible], that she got engaged. And they start telling 10 her, “oh how wonderful.” and she's so embarrassed. And she says “I don't want to stay in school.” And my maternal grandfather was the principal of the school. And he had been assigned to go to Sapporo, which is quite a ways away, to be a principal at a high school in Sapporo. So, he realized how embarrassed she was. And how uncomfortable she was. So he said, “do you want to go with me?” So, she went away, [Laughter]so she wasn't around. I don't know how long they were there. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh my gosh. In the meantime, though, I forgot to ask your Dad, even though he was going to college and majoring in English literature, wasn't he also being trained as a priest? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Oh, yes. He also had to become a minister because he had to take over the family temple. >> Carlene Tinker: Right, yeah. >> Rumiko Arakawa: So, because he had other obligations, too. >> Carlene Tinker: So, he was both a teacher and . . . >> Rumiko Arakawa: Yeah. yeah. So, he . . . I guess the school wasn't that far. I guess in the same city where as the temple is. And so, I guess it was okay. And then they, they got married when she was 19. And he was 23. And uh… >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. In the meantime, did they have contact with each other. She's up in Sapporo? >> Rumiko Arakawa: I don't know. >> Carlene Tinker: It doesn't sound like it. I think with arranged marriages, which this was, you just sort of expected it. You got engaged and then later on you got married. There wasn't much of a relationship, of dating. Is that correct?11 [laughter] >> Rumiko Arakawa: Yes. I don't think so. My mother says— I said “did you ever date or go out with a boy?” She says, “no.” She says the closest she got to a boy was her school—girl school was here. And then across the street was the boy school. And they looked through the fence and looked across the street to see the boys. And that's about as close as she got to any kind of boys. She says they didn't date. Everything was arranged.[ Laughter ]So, there was no fraternizing there. >> Carlene Tinker: So, ultimately then when your Dad was 23 and she was 19, then they got married. And I guess, I didn't ask you, what area in Japan are your relatives from? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Oh my family is from Fukui-ken, which is a province opposite side from Tokyo on the Sea of Japan side. And it's on the ocean—on the Sea of Japan. It's on the seaside. Sort of a seaside province. >> Carlene Tinker: Right. >> Rumiko Arakawa: And it's not too far from that Nagano about 150 miles from . . . >> Carlene Tinker: And you spelled that F-U-K-U-I >> Rumiko Arakawa: Fukui-ken. Fukui-ken. >> Carlene Tinker: And so, is that where they got married? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Yes, I'm pretty sure that's where they got married. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. What year would that be? Do you remember? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Uh, Nineteen-twenty-eight. Yeah. Yeah.12 >> Carlene Tinker: ‘28, okay. So, did they stay in Japan for a while? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Oh, yes. they were there in Japan, let's see. Between [the age of] 19 and 25 my, my mother had four boys. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh my gosh. >> Rumiko Arakawa: She didn't know where they were coming from. [Laughter] >> Carlene Tinker: I hoped she learned by that age. >> Rumiko Arakawa: My oldest brother was born in 1929. And then second one was born about 1931, I think, early part of ‘31, there's only about 15 months between the two. And then the third one was born, I think 1932. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Rumiko Arakawa: So those two were, the second and third were pretty close. I think only like 12 months apart… >> Carlene Tinker: oh, yeah. >> Rumiko Arakawa: …or 12 or 13 months apart. And then, And then about 1934, I guess, there was the possibility that the main temple in—in Kyoto asked if my father might consider going to America to be a missionary, Buddhist. Buddhist. And so, my father always, always looked to Japan—uh, America. He liked English literature, America. So, he says oh, yes. And he wanted to go. My mother was not reluctant. Because she's leaving her family and she's going to be taking her children and everything.13 >> Carlene Tinker: So, she had three boys—they had three boys by that point? >> Rumiko Arakawa: Yeah, but by that time. So, they were ages like 5, 3, and 2. >> Carlene Tinker: oh, Wow. >> Rumiko Arakawa: Something like that 5, 3 and 2. And uh, but the members of the temple, they said, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. If you go to America, are you're going to come back?” You know, “Who is going to take over the temple?” And so they said, “You've got to leave somebody behind” You know. “One of—one of your sons is going to have to stay behind and to finally take over the temple. So, it was decided to keep the first two, the 5 and 3-year old. Because—And the 2-year-old was too young. And I think that my mother was expecting her fourth by then, at that time. So, they decided to leave the first two. So, my oldest brother, Toshihiko and Fumihiko were left behind. >> Carlene Tinker: Who did they stay with? >> Rumiko Arakawa: They stayed behind with I think my grandfather, my maternal grandfather, maternal grandmother and some other aunts and uncles or whatever that were still living in the area. And then they came to Tacoma. Tacoma, Washington. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Rumiko Arakawa: And then shortly after they arrived about six months later, my fourth brother was born in Tacoma. Raymond was born in Tacoma, Washington. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. That was about 1934? Okay. >> Rumiko Arakawa: 1934.

Naomi Tagawa interview

1 >> Carlene Tinker: Good morning, Ms. Tagawa. My name is Carlene Tanigoshi Tinker, and I'm a volunteer from Fresno State's uh, Henry Madden Library. Specifically, the Special Collections Research Center. We're conducting oral histories of people who were in relocation camps during World War II [audio issues], and I know that you were in one as well. And um, first of all I want to say thank you for inviting me into your home today, which is located at 216 North Green Street in Hanford, California. Um, as you know, Dr. Howard Ono, whom you met recently is also a volunteer, and he's interested in people just like you, as I am, because both of us were in a relocation camp. It wasn't the same one as yours, but we were in the Granada Relocation Center in southeastern Colorado. And maybe you don't know it by that name. It was renamed Amache, because the nearby town—nearby town of Granada, and they pronounced it Grenada, was getting inundated flooded with over 7,000 letters a day. And so consequently they put pressure on the relocation center and said “we got to do something, so you need to rename it so we don't get your mail and we don't get yours.” Okay. So they -- some people decided that they would rename it after a prominent citizen of that area, and the prominent citizen they were thinking of was John Prowers. He was a cattle baron living in the area in the early 1900s, and they said, well "Okay, maybe we'll name the camp after his wife." And she died, I think, in 1905, but she was a Cheyenne Indian, and her name was Amache, that was her first name. So that's how she got or how the camp got named that and another interesting thing about Amache is that her father was a very prominent chief among the Cheyenne Indians, and he was killed in around, I think it was 1864 in the Sand Creek massacre, which happened about 50 miles west of Amache. And so she was lucky to have survived that massacre. So anyway, that's a little bit of history. >> Naomi Tagawa: What an interesting history. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Isn't it? >> Naomi Tagawa: Oh, yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So people say, well how in the world did it get named Amache? Well that's how it got its name. Yeah. So, anyway, Dr. Howard Ono and I were little kids in Amache, and because of our interest in camps, our personal histories we wanted to reach out to people like yourself and compare your experiences with ours. So that's why we're participating in this project. >> Naomi Tagawa: Thank you. Thank you so very much. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So before we begin, will you give me your full name? >> Naomi Tagawa: Naomi Tagawa is my full name. >> Carlene Tinker: Do you have a middle name? >> Naomi Tagawa: No, I do not. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Well that's interesting. >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: What is your birth date?2 >> Naomi Tagawa: February 20, 1920. >> Carlene Tinker: So how old are you now? >> Naomi Tagawa: Ninety-seven. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's wonderful, that's wonderful. And where were you born? >> Naomi Tagawa: I was born in Hanford, California. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, so your parents were living here at the time? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And have you lived at this residence the longest? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Probably, okay. >>Naomi Tagawa:Yes >> Carlene Tinker: Because I think your dad built the house or had it built? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes, because they worked for the Vendome Hotel in Hanford in the 1900s. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: And they made enough money to buy the five lots for one gold coin, which is $600. >> Carlene Tinker: Isn't that amazing? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >>Carlene Tinker: In the 1900s, early 1900s? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh. >> Naomi Tagawa: And so then they built this, I had a two story building for a boardinghouse. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: And mom cooked for five years, and she got tired, so then they went into the laundry business. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's how it became the laundry business, because your mom got tired? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. [brief laughter] >> Carlene Tinker: I don't blame her. [laughs] >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes.3 >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Let's see. Now, have you lived anywhere else besides Hanford? >> Naomi Tagawa: Oh, in San Francisco when I went to school up there. >> Carlene Tinker: But that was only for short time? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. Just about a year or year and a half. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Now just an aside, I want to point out to our readers that Naomi has done an interview, a very detailed interview which is online in our collection as well from 1980. Do you remember giving that? >> Naomi Tagawa: I think so. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Naomi Tagawa: I got to speak at the College of Sequoia for six years, because the professor there knew about all the Japanese and what happened. And so I spoke to her class for six different years, and then to the Pioneer School, the eighth grade history class I spoke to them too. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so that's probably how that interview came about and how it— I'm not sure how it got in the collection, but I found it. So a lot of this information that we're going over today is probably in that one as well. So we'll call today's interview Part Two. >> Naomi Tagawa: Okay. [brief laughter] >> Carlene Tinker: All right. Okay. Before we start on your own personal history, let's go into your background, your family background, your grandparents, your parents. Where did your grandparents live? Were they in—from Japan? >> Naomi Tagawa: They're from Japan. >> Carlene Tinker: Did they ever come here or was it just your -- >> Naomi Tagawa: No, no. I have never met them, my grandparents. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh. >> Naomi Tagawa: My father came over in 1900s from Japan to—through Seattle, Washington. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: And then he worked on the railroads. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh. >> Naomi Tagawa: And then, but I wish I had asked him more questions, because I don't know how he got to Hanford. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that, yeah. So that was going to be my next question, yeah. >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. And then there were all single fellows at that time, and they didn't speak any English, but my father and two other fellows were raising chickens, and then, but dad 4 thought something was just not right. So he wrote to his brother in Japan to ask him to find a wife for him…bride. >> Carlene Tinker: How old was he at the time that he came? >> Naomi Tagawa: He was 25, I think. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, he was an older guy? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Was he a farmer in Japan or do you know what he did in Japan? >> Naomi Tagawa: No, I don't know. I wish I had, but he took a very good Jōruri—Jōruri singing for the bunraku… play, you know where they have the puppet? >> Carlene Tinker: Yes, yes, yes. >> Naomi Tagawa: So he took that and he said, “I wasn't that good, so I thought, no, I'll just come over. So he came over to work in the United States.” And then so he wanted a wife, and so he wrote to his brother in Japan and asked him. And she was from a farm family. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: And she came over in 1907. >> Carlene Tinker: 1907, okay that was after the San Francisco Earthquake? >> Naomi Tagawa: Uh-huh. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, okay. Did she come from the same area that your father came from or do you know that? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes, Kumamoto. You know the Kyushu [Southernmost island of Japan] . >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes, but I never met my grandparents, but the first time I ever visited Japan was in 1980. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh! >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. And so I met— ah, my sister said, "Oh, I didn't get anything for your birthday." I said, "That's okay." And she said, "How about a trip to Japan?" And so, I said, "Ooh, yeah!" >> Carlene Tinker: [laughs] I'll take that. >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. So I met some cousins there, and they took us around and he was very gracious. He owned about 11 service stations. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh wow.5 >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: So they were quite well-off then. >> Naomi Tagawa: Well off. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Naomi Tagawa: He drove us around, and he found out about our— his relatives that he didn't know that… >> Carlene Tinker: [laughs] He didn't know about, huh? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. And likewise you didn't know much about them? >> Naomi Tagawa: That's right. >> Carlene Tinker: That's right. So that was in 1980 -- >> Naomi Tagawa: --‘80. first time. >> Carlene Tinker: -- you took that trip. Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: And the second time was in 1990, because my brother-in-law was from Wakayama. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: And his—he was going to take us with his daughter, my niece. And—But he passed away, but we went anyway. [background noise] And so to the Wakayama City. And his relative was a mayor -- >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: -- of Wakayama City. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: And so they were very gracious to us and they took around. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, Wakayama, is that a province of ken or is it a city? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. It's a city, Wakayama. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. I think my own -- one of my grandfathers came from there. >> Naomi Tagawa: I see. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. I think generally the first people who came to the United States were sort of from the same areas that were affected by taxes and depression. >> Naomi Tagawa: Oh, I see.6 >> Carlene Tinker: That was my impression. >> Naomi Tagawa: Oh, I'm—I’m not sure about that. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. So you said you went with your brother-in-law, was that Henry [Sugimoto]? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes, Henry, but he passed away so in 1990. >> Carlene Tinker: Ooh. >> Naomi Tagawa: So his daughter and I went. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, he didn't physically -- >> Naomi Tagawa: No. >> Carlene Tinker: -- he didn't go with you. >> Naomi Tagawa: He didn't go, no. >> Carlene Tinker: His daughter went, okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: And then his paintings of the camps he didn't know what to do with it, and his cousin said, "Bring them over here."— “So send them over here.” So it's in the library there. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, over there? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes, in Wakayama. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh. >> Naomi Tagawa: And there's a big painting of New York City in the City—City Hall there. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh. I wonder if they're still there? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. I think so. >> Carlene Tinker: Wow. >> Naomi Tagawa: When we visited. His cousins drove us around everywhere. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh, okay. So getting back to your own father -- >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: -- and your mom. So they married in -- >> Naomi Tagawa: San Francisco. >> Carlene Tinker: -- San Francisco, and that was 1907? Is that when your mom came? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: And they got married right at -- was it like a picture bride type of thing?7 >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. There's a wedding picture of them I have somewhere. [inaudible]. >>Carlene Tinker: I'll take a picture of that. Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: But he actually sent over there with a picture of himself, is that typical? >> Naomi Tagawa: No, No, he just wrote and so she was very tall for a Japanese and he's short. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh [laughs] >> Naomi Tagawa: And he--he was not very complimentary, [laughs] but he was very nice, you know. They got along very well. >> Carlene Tinker: What was your father's name? >> Naomi Tagawa: Sakutaro. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And your mom's name? >> Naomi Tagawa: Tazu. >> Carlene Tinker: Tazu? >> Naomi Tagawa: T-A-Z-U. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And what was her maiden name? >> Naomi Tagawa: I think it was Nishiyama. >> Carlene Tinker: Nishiyama. Okay. So they married around 1907. How many children did they have? >> Naomi Tagawa: Three. >> Carlene Tinker: Three. >> Naomi Tagawa: Girls, and my sister Susie was the oldest, 10 years older than me. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh. >> Naomi Tagawa: And Kikuya was the middle. She was born five years later, and but she died with diphtheria. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh my God. >> Naomi Tagawa: She was only about three years old I think. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, you know, during those times it was so hard to lose people. They didn't have the modern medicines that we have… >> Naomi Tagawa: That's right. >> Carlene Tinker: …Antibiotics specifically.8 >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: So it sounds like your parents had children one—once every five years? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Because you came in 1920. >> Naomi Tagawa: 1920 [laughs] yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Now is your older sister still alive? >> Naomi Tagawa: No. >> Carlene Tinker: When did she die? That was Susie? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: Oh, I forgot. She died in New York City there. I forgot what year it was. She had breast cancer. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, okay. And probably before 2000? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. I kinda remember you saying that. Okay. After your parents married, did they, you know, they got married in San Francisco. How did they get to Hanford? Did they stay in San Francisco or did they come directly to Hanford? >> Naomi Tagawa: They came to Hanford, and they were working at the Vendome Hotel. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: And in the 1900s they were working there. >> Carlene Tinker: Is that hotel still here? >> Naomi Tagawa: No, it just burned recently, maybe three or four years ago. And they rebuilt that place, and they [Naomi’s parents] made enough money to have the two-story building built as a boardinghouse on Green Street. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, okay. Oh, just recently they did that? >> Naomi Tagawa: But the job was in 1911. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, okay. Oh, oh I see, I see. Okay I'm getting it mixed up with the current. >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Incidentally, I didn't mention that we're doing this interview on Friday, August 18, 2017. Yeah. And we want to compare that with your previous interview.9 >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. I see. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Okay, so your parents were working for this hotel, and then they were given some a lot. Is that right? And then -- >> Naomi Tagawa: They were paid and what they had they brought the property here. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And then the house was built and then the two-story building next door? >> Naomi Tagawa: The house, this house is built afterwards. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh. >> Naomi Tagawa: Because I had to go back and forth, because the kitchen and the dining room was in that building, in the two-story building, and so my niece and his—her father said we will help you. Would you please have kitchen put in this house. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. So that's how it was added on? >> Naomi Tagawa: Added on, yes. >> Carlene Tinker: What time—what year was that? Do you remember? >> Naomi Tagawa: Oh, dear. I think there's a date on there, but I'm not sure exactly. But it was after we came back from camp— >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, okay. Okay, Naomi. We had a little break there. Just I think we were talking about your parents building this house after they were working for the hotel people, and they built this house as well as the two-story building next door, is that correct? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: And then later on because you didn't have a kitchen in the house. You had to go next door to the two-story building. Is that right? >> Naomi Tagawa: Actually this was built afterwards. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh! After it, okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: Of the two-story building. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And the two-story building was a boardinghouse, and your mom cooked for everybody. >> Naomi Tagawa: Five years. >> Carlene Tinker: And how many borders did you have? >> Naomi Tagawa: Oh, there were several of single fellows that used to work for different places, restaurants and – [audio issues] >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And so was it mostly men or all men?10 >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah, men. >> Carlene Tinker: All men. >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Okay. So what years would that be? Was that -- were you born yet? >> Naomi Tagawa: No. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And that, so after you were born, then mom got tired of being a cook? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: And then she decided not to work there anymore, right? >> Naomi Tagawa: Oh –-And then went into the laundry business. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Now did she work in the laundry as well? >> Naomi Tagawa: Oh, yes. Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And what kind of services did they provide? >> Naomi Tagawa: It was hand laundry, so dad delivered a basketful of laundry for a family for a$1.50. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my God. >> Naomi Tagawa: And then he delivered with a horse and buggy, and then next it was a model T Ford. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, for heaven sakes. >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. And we were doing laundry [audio issues] for different various people who lived in the big homes here. >> Carlene Tinker: So it was mostly the people who were on the wealthy side who were able to -- >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: -- to afford the laundry service? >> Naomi Tagawa: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: So your dad delivered these things by horse and buggy, and then later by -- >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. A car. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Naomi Tagawa: And then there were three ladies usually were hired to do the hand ironing. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, okay.11 >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: So it was a fairly large business. >> Naomi Tagawa: There were Caucasian people who came to work. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay so your customers. What was his—What were his customers? Were they primarily Caucasian people? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes, mostly. >> Carlene Tinker: Mostly, but also on the wealthy side? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes, wealthy side, yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Would you consider your father's business a success? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. So he became a fairly successful businessman? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: And made a considerable amount of money? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. And I know he helped a lot of the different Japanese families that had a large family during the depression years. He was very kind to help them financially. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Now was your dad able to become a citizen and your mom became-- were they citizens? >> Naomi Tagawa: No, they were not able to become a citizen until after that we were incarcerated. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Why is that? Why—why couldn't they become a citizen. >> Naomi Tagawa: I really don't know, but I know that afterwards after we came back from camp, there were citizen—citizenship classes at nighttime, and I used to take them up to the high school where they were all given this, and then they were at the courthouse after 40 years they were given their citizenship. >> Carlene Tinker: Isn't that something. Now were both of them able to speak English as well as Japanese? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes, yes they were. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Yeah. I imagine that was a very good asset, very helpful thing for your father, is that correct?12 >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. And then there were so many wonderful ladies from the First Presbyterian Church came and taught these single fellows English. They were so touched by their kindness that they were baptized as Christians. >> Carlene Tinker: Your parents were - >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: Especially the four men, my father and Mr. Haas. I remember them, but I don't know who the other two were. >> Carlene Tinker: Is that right? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Until then were they Buddhists? >> Naomi Tagawa: They were Buddhists. Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: So because of the kindness of these people who were Christians, they converted to Christianity? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Naomi Tagawa: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Would you consider yourself a Christian? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes, I was raised, I was baptized by -- and we used to have a Japanese Presbyterian church here, and then ministers were from Japan and there were Presbyterian ministers. And— >>Carlene Tinker: So? >> Naomi Tagawa: --And so we had Sunday school and everything right on 7th Street here. >> Carlene Tinker: Is that right? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So would you say there were more Buddhists or more Christians at that time among the Japanese-Americans? >> Naomi Tagawa: I really don't know. But there were quite a few Buddhist people, and the Buddhist church was right next door to our -- >> Carlene Tinker: Your Christian church? >> Naomi Tagawa: -- the Japanese American, yes. The church.13 >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. I think right now someone told me there are very few Buddhist left, is that correct? >> Naomi Tagawa: Yes, very few. >> Carlene Tinker: Are there very many Japanese-Americans living in—in Hanford? >> Naomi Tagawa: Not very many. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Naomi Tagawa: No. >> Carlene Tinker: What accounts for that, do you think? >> Naomi Tagawa: I think well a lot of the young people, they moved to cities for, you know, employment and all that. And there—and quite a few of them didn't come back to Hanford. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, and I guess too a lot of them have intermarried. Is that true? >> Naomi Tagawa: I think so. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Yeah, I'm speaking for myself. [laughs] >> Naomi Tagawa: Oh yeah. That’s—That's right. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Now, how did your -- getting back to your dad being successful. I remember you saying something about financially they helped people in Japan. Is that true or am I remembering corr

Gary Tsudama interview

1 >> Carlene Tinker: [audio issues] Good morning Mr. Tsudama. >> Gary Tsudama: Good morning. >> Carlene Tinker: Thank you very much for agreeing to participate in our Oral History Project. The Oral History Project, as you know, is for the Special Collections Research Center at the Henry Madden Library at Fresno State, and principally, it focuses on people who were in relo-relocation camps during World War II. So, basically, all of those of us who are Japanese Americans, okay. >> Gary Tsudama: Correct. >> Carlene Tinker: So, my name is Carlene Tanigoshi Tinker and I'm a volunteer for Special Collections and I will be the interviewer today and we are meeting today on Thursday, August 17th, 2017, at my home. >> Gary Tsudama: Correct. >> Carlene Tinker: My home is located at 4553 East Alamos, Fresno 93726. Just to give you a little background, Dr. Howard Ono and I are actually doing the interviewing, because, not only are we volunteers, but we also are former internees; although, we were young. We still have some memories and some experiences that we'd like to share with others and that was how we got interested in this project. The particular relocation camp that we were in was Amache in Southeastern Colorado. It was formerly known as Granada Relocation Center, but because they were in it the town[of Granada] was inundated with so much mail from the nearby camp, they decided that maybe the relocation camp had to be renamed. So, that's how; and what they did was they actually got ideas for a new name and they decided to name it after the wife, long deceased, but wife of a local cattle baron and his name was John Prowers and her name was Amache, her first name was Amache and they were Cheyenne Indians. So, that's how that name came about. >> Gary Tsudama: Alright. That's good to know. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. It's interesting isn't it? >> Gary Tsudama: It is. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. And so, today, [I will be] interviewing you to get your ideas and your memories, as well as, the experiences to compare with ours and these will be online. They will be part of an electronic E-collection and people will be able to research, hear your story as a former internee. >> Gary Tsudama: Okay. Right. >> Carlene Tinker: So, basically the format will be, I will be looking or I will be asking you questions about your history, your family history and your life, early life in California and then relocation camp, and then after you came back. >> Gary Tsudama: Okay. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so that's how we're going to do. >> Gary Tsudama: Okay.2 >> Carlene Tinker: Do you have any questions? >> Gary Tsudama: No, no questions. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Okay, so first of all I want you to give me your full name, your birthdate, your place of birth, and the place where you lived the longest. >> Gary Tsudama: Okay. My name is Gary Shigeru Tsudama. I was born in Stockton, California, St. Joseph Hospital in April 13, 1925. I lived at 321 South Commerce Street in Stockton for most of [phone ringing] and my family had a grocery store just a block away. It was a pop and mom store, but then it was big enough to hire some people and I as a teenager, went to help there too. Right across the street was uh, Franklin School that I attended until they transferred myself and my friend Sei Hattori. I lived right next door to the school and they transferred me and we had to bike a mile-and-a-half to Lafayette School, and there from the 3rd grade to 6th grade, I went to Lafayette School and from 7th grade I went to Washington School. And while I was at Lafayette School I met a German friend and we became buddies and at high school we met every morning before we went to school, I mean, before we went to classes and then we met together for lunch and then that went on for 4—3-and-a-half years. When December 7th came along, which was Sunday, Monday morning I saw him and he called me a "dirty Jap." And I went to slug him, but my friend held me back because if I slugged him, I would [have] had to go see the principal, not this fella. Anyway, that was the first discrimination that I felt. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Okay, now okay you were in Stockton basically from the time you born until through high school? >> Gary Tsudama: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: And then you went to camp and then when you came back from camp where did you end up? In other words, did you, when did you come back to Fresno or come to Fresno? >> Gary Tsudama: Well, we evac—we were evacuated to the Stockton Assembly Center at the fairgrounds in Stockton and we stayed there 6 months and then we were sent to Gila Rivers in Arizona. And from there, my dad was 55 years old; I thought he was such an old man [brief laughter]. But then, he got tired and he got bored and said “we got to get out of here”, and this was in ‘44, 1944. And then we moved to, relocated to Alamosa, Colorado where a friend wrote him and we were there for 8 years. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, wow. >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah, we farmed. >> Carlene Tinker: I didn't realize that. >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah. We farmed there. We were laborer for 2 years and then said, "This isn't good." So, we found a farmer who would share crop with us and we did that in Alamosa and then we finally bought a plot area, 160-acres which was 40-acres of good, but the rest of it was alkali. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh my gosh. Oh. >> Gary Tsudama: But we were able to farm. And from there, we came; I was inducted into the service and served my time in Korea and when I was discharged, I came back to Alamosa and I 3 told my folks I want to go to college and my brother was living in Fresno and he was married. So, I wrote to him and he said, "Sure, come on back." So, I went from Alamosa to Fresno. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, what year was that then? Probably? >> Gary Tsudama: Nineteen fifty-two. >> Carlene Tinker: Fifty-two, okay. >> Gary Tsudama: And then I came to Fresno and I started part-time job and then uh, so when school started I signed up to go to Fresno State and I was there for 3-and-a-half years again. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so that would be 1955-56. >> Gary Tsudama: Five uh-hum. And then I got married; which I got married a little bit early. Not early, because I was 31 and 32 then, so that's late actually [brief laughter]. But, since I was going to school that was early. And then, naturally what happens is kids come; kids are born, so I dropped out and then I started working fulltime and I was working as a, I tried to get into my major of BusAG, but at that time no one looked at us when we applied for a job for office. So, my second minor was accounting, so I went into the accounting field now. So, which was that panned out alright and so I was accounting clerk for a while and then accounting for several years. And then my brother, 2 of my brother[s] were working at the Post Office and they were getting $1.55 an hour and they told me to come to work for the Post Office because of benefits. I says, "Heck I'm getting$5.50 outside of Post Office.” I couldn't make that change. Then I realized the benefits was greater. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, that is important, isn't it? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: So, I applied for a job at the Post Office and I was able to get in. So, I worked at the Post Office for 20 years and I got my pension there which I was glad and I also have my healthcare there. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, right. So, you worked at the Post Office for only 20, years is that what you're saying? And then how old were you when you retired then? >> Gary Tsudama: I retired at 67. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my goodness and so what did you do from 67 until your present age of 92? >> Gary Tsudama: Well, I retired and then just then my—there was a church group that, my church group, Buddhist Church started a senior club. So I changed—I joined it and then we went on tours and went to casinos and went to Wyoming and Grand Canyon and things and then my wife says, "You're having too much fun." So she retired from the IRS after she worked there for 26 years. >>Carlene Tinker: Uh-hum. >> Gary Tsudama: [brief laughter] So, then she started having fun with me which was good.4 >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's great. Then you had time together. >> Gary Tsudama: Uh-hum. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Okay, well let's stop here and go back a little bit, because we'll come back to your experiences here in-- >> Gary Tsudama: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: --Fresno. I want to talk about your family background, you know, your parents, your grandparents. I assume it was just your parents who came to the United States? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Is that right? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: So, where did they come from? What part of Japan? >> Gary Tsudama: My father, when he was 16, he came from Hiroshima, Japan to the Stockton Delta area, because that's where a lot of Hiroshima people went to. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, is that right? Okay. >> Gary Tsudama: So, that's where he met a lot of people and then after working several years, my father—uh, my grandfather wrote to him and said, "It's about time you got married." >> Carlene Tinker: A little family pressure [brief laughter]. >> Gary Tsudama: So, my grandfather sent my father a picture, so it was a picture of wedding which was good. So, my father figured “if my wife is going to come, I can't have her working out in the field.” So, he quit that farming and came into Stockton and opened up a grocery store. And then when my mother came to San Francisco, he went and met her there with the picture and then they went to the City Hall in San Francisco and got married and drove back to Stockton and their life began, and… >> Carlene Tinker: Now was your mother quite a bit younger than your dad or were they-- >> Gary Tsudama: Oh yes. >> Carlene Tinker: --About the same? >> Gary Tsudama: Nine years younger. >> Carlene Tinker: Nine years. Well, that's, that's not very much. I've heard of maybe 15 or 20 years, yeah.5 >> Gary Tsudama: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah so then they came back to, I mean he brought her to Stockton. >> Gary Tsudama: Stockton. >> Carlene Tinker: And then what happened? They ran a grocery store? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes and we had the grocery store, and then dad worked at it; and mom working at the store too until the kids start coming. >> Carlene Tinker: Hmm. How many kids? >> Gary Tsudama: We had 7. >> Carlene Tinker: Seven. And where are you in that birth order? >> Gary Tsudama: Six. >> Carlene Tinker: Six. Okay, and then who was the 7th one? >> Gary Tsudama: My sister. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. Was it; as I remember you told me that there were all boys and then one girl is that correct? >> Gary Tsudama: That's right. >> Carlene Tinker: Are you all close; were they spaced about like once every 2 years or something? >> Gary Tsudama: That's right. Every 2 years. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh. Your mom was really busy. >> Gary Tsudama: That's right. So, during that time she didn't come to the store. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: Stayed at home, took care of the kids. >> Carlene Tinker: Who helped in the store? Did he hire people from-- >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: The outside? >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah, he hired people, one elderly gentleman that he stayed with us. And then naturally when my oldest brother was able to, because when they're a teenager they start helping at the store. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, I see. >> Gary Tsudama: So that was good. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. And did you also help in the store--6 >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: --When you got old enough? >> Gary Tsudama: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: In fact, on Saturdays, my job at home was to chop wood for the stove. >> Carlene Tinker: Wow. >> Gary Tsudama: So, after that I was free. So I used to play baseball and football and-- >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: --Did that. So, I had a easy life [brief laughter] before the evacuation. >> Carlene Tinker: Right. What kind of groceries did they carry? Was, or did they have a meat department as well? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: And veggies? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: You had vegetables? >> Gary Tsudama: We had the vegetables up in the front and then canned goods on the side and produce and then, then my dad opened up a meat corner which was good, because during that time it was Depression time. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: So, I guess we didn't suffer too bad because we just went to the store and got the food and came home and ate it. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, you were one of the fortunate ones. >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah, we were lucky that way. >> Carlene Tinker: What was I going to , um? So, it sounds like your parents had, or your dad had a very successful business. As I recall when we talked earlier, you said it was good enough that he made enough money to go back to Japan to help out his family. Was that true? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Did I remember that correctly? >> Gary Tsudama: No, that's he stayed in the states all the time. >> Carlene Tinker: But I mean he just went to visit. >> Gary Tsudama: To visit, visit, right. >> Carlene Tinker: And was able to help them financially…7 >> Gary Tsudama: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: Is that correct? >> Gary Tsudama: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: What did your grandparents do in Japan? I forgot to ask that. >> Gary Tsudama: I really don't know. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: I can't remember. I think my grandfather came from Hiroshima also. >> Gary Tsudama: Oh. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. But I think, if I remember from reading a lot of people were in farming. >> Gary Tsudama: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: And you know things were really-- taxation was high and that was why a lot of people left like your father left. >> Gary Tsudama: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: My grandfather came when he was 14? >> Gary Tsudama: Fourteen. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: See, my dad was 16. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: When he came here. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So, Depression here in California or the United States is just like what was happening there, so. >> Gary Tsudama: Is that right? >> Carlene Tinker: That motivated a lot of people to do different things. >> Gary Tsudama: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: and I think, at least in my grandpa's case, I think he had intended like a lot of them to go back to Japan, but he ended up getting married and staying in the United States. >> Gary Tsudama: See, my father believed in Japan. >> Carlene Tinker: He, I'm sorry?8 >> Gary Tsudama: He believed in Japan. So, when he had extra money he bought stocks in Japan. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh! >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. Whereas, other Issei people bought stock in American stock, you know, which was good. So, when the [alarm sound] war broke out, it was nothing. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: So he lost all that money. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, wow. >> Gary Tsudama: So that was a bad mistake he made. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. And earlier, you talked about going to school, grammar school, junior high and finishing high school in Stockton and you intimated that this German friend of yours was probably your first experience with discrimination. >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: When he called you a— >> Gary Tsudama: “Jap” >> Carlene Tinker: --“dirty Jap” or something like that. >> Gary Tsudama: Hmm, that’s right. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, you know, that really hurt I'm sure. >> Gary Tsudama: Oh, yes it hurt because from 3rd grade all the way up to senior we were buddies. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: Then the war broke out, next day he called me a dirty Jap-- >> Carlene Tinker: Oh. >> Gary Tsudama: You know? So, it had to be the parents telling them. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: But, what I can't figure out is why the parents did that, because they were Germans. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, they weren't-- >> Gary Tsudama: German, Italy and Japan were allies you know? >> Carlene Tinker: That's right. They were enemies too.9 >> Gary Tsudama: That's right. So. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. You know, um, prejudice and discrimination are just amazing. You know, like my parents when they came back to California after the war, they tried to move in to North Long Beach and people were signing a petition to get rid of them and, you know, and fortunately, that wasn't successful and those people who circulated the petition became their closest friend. [brief Laughter] You know, so, you know, you just kind of wonder what goes through people's minds. >> Gary Tsudama: Mind, right. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. When you growing up in Stockton did you speak Japanese? >> Gary Tsudama: Oh, yes. In fact… >> Carlene Tinker: Did you go to a Japanese school? >> Gary Tsudama: We spoke Japanese until I started kindergarten. So I had to learn English starting in kindergarten. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, you didn't speak English until then. >> Gary Tsudama: No. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh,wow. >> Gary Tsudama: All the kids that we played with spoke Japanese. >>Carlene Tinker: Uh-huh. >> Gary Tsudama: So we started to talk[english] in kindergarten, that's where we started. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, wow, yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: So it was— that was bad I thought, but. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. How did you learn English? Was it easy or was it sink or swim, you know? >> Gary Tsudama: No, no. I guess it came on easy. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. I think when you're younger. >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah. It--my brain absorbed it quick—quicker not like now. >> Carlene Tinker: Speaking for those of us who are now having difficulties remembering things. >> Gary Tsudama: Right [brief laughter]. >> Carlene Tinker: Isn't that amazing too? >> Gary Tsudama: It sure is. >> Carlene Tinker: Did you go to Japanese school after school? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes.10 >> Carlene Tinker: On Saturdays? >> Gary Tsudama: No. Went to school, English school for 5 days and then I got out that school at 3 O'clock and we came home, picked up our books and went to Japanese school. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, you did. >> Gary Tsudama: From 3:30 to 6. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. >> Gary Tsudama: Every day. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, wow. >> Gary Tsudama: Five days a week, so. >> Carlene Tinker: What did you learn in the Japanese school after school? >> Gary Tsudama: Well, we learned how to read, but boy[s] being boys they never studied at home, but girls being girls they studied at home, they spoke perfect Japanese and boys are really slow [brief laughter]. >> Carlene Tinker: I never did that. We lived in an area where there were; I mean I was 1 of 2 families as I was growing up. So we didn't have that opportunity. And I think Dr. Ono the other volunteer who is interviewing people, he did go to Japanese school. >> Gary Tsudama: Oh, great. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. What religion are you? What religion do you have? >> Gary Tsudama: I'm a Buddhist. >> Carlene Tinker: And so, were you a Buddha—were there a lot of Buddhists, were there many Christians in Stockton? >> Gary Tsudama: Hmm, Yes. There are Christians and Buddhists. And in those days naturally their rivalry between the Buddhists and Christians, so even playing sports there were rivalry. >> Carlene Tinker: Is that right? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. It's sad to say, but then now in Fresno I was happy because the Boy Scouts at the Christian church and the Buddhist church joined together and they made one troop. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh. >> Gary Tsudama: Which is good. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: The Girl Scouts did that too. >> Carlene Tinker: Is that right? >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah, so. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.11 >> Gary Tsudama: They're together. >> Carlene Tinker: That's right. That's the way it should be. >> Gary Tsudama: It should be, right. >> Carlene Tinker: Definitely. Yeah, I know that you currently go to the Buddhist Temple here. >> Gary Tsudama: Right. >> Carlene Tinker: Right? And you sing in the choir right? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Did you always like to sing? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. In fact, in my high school the last year, I was finished with all my requirements, I took Acapella choir there. And then I was singing in a big group and then the teacher came behind me and tapped me and said, "You're not a bass. You're a tenor."[brief laughter] So, for me the tenor section. >> Carlene Tinker: Are you still a tenor? >> Gary Tsudama: No. I'm bass now. >> Carlene Tinker: You are bass now. I can tell that right there, yeah. >> Gary Tsudama: So. >> Carlene Tinker: Getting back to the store, were your customers most; that was what I was trying to remember, were your customers mostly Japanese Americans? >> Gary Tsudama: Yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Or were there Caucasians as well? >> Gary Tsudama: There were Hispanics. >> Carlene Tinker: Oh, Hispanics. >> Gary Tsudama: Because in our area was Japanese, Chinese, Spanish, Italians and Blacks. >> Carlene Tinker: No kidding? >> Gary Tsudama: Yeah. >> Carlene Tinker: Not very many if, very few Caucasian? Is that right? >> Gary Tsudama: Right, so. >> Carlene Tinker: Did your father have any difficulties collecting money, getting money from any group? >> Gary Tsudama: That's the thing. He had no problem except he--he had a charge account for the people out on the farms, because when we went to sell food out there, once or twice a week we used to take our truck, take the truck out to the farmers and the Japanese farmers sell them bread, milk, and whatever they wanted. They order it and we take them. So, they would sign a 12 ticket, but when the evacua

Tom Birmingham interview

Long time water lawyer involved with the Mono Lake cases and current general manager of the Westlands Water District

Maurice Roos interview

Former chief hydrologist for the California Department of Water Resources. Talks about building models of weather and water flow in the State Water Project

Lance Johnson interview

Former water engineer working for many irrigation districts in the Valley. Talks about changes in water management and the need for more water storage