Ellis, R.S.

Hoskins, J.D.

English

University of Tennessee, Knoxville: Trace

University of Tennessee, KnoxvilleTrace: Tennessee Research and CreativeExchangeCharles W. Dabney, 1887-1904 Office of the President6-18-1923Interview with Dr. R.S. Ellis Questioned by DeanJ.D. HoskinsR.S. EllisUniversity of Tennessee - KnoxvilleJ.D. HoskinsUniversity of Tennessee - KnoxvilleFollow this and additional works at: http://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_dabnThis University Policy is brought to you for free and open access by the Office of the President at Trace: Tennessee Research and Creative Exchange. Ithas been accepted for inclusion in Charles W. Dabney, 1887-1904 by an authorized administrator of Trace: Tennessee Research and Creative Exchange.For more information, please contact trace@utk.edu.Recommended Citation"Interview with Dr. R.S. Ellis Questioned by Dean J.D. Hoskins" President's Papers, AR-0001. University of Tennessee, Knoxville,Special Collections.http://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_dabn/118I D • p . 1. ( • ELLIS ~ ( an i rv s. s _ Y OF EST! 01~Y bFFf~ D BY TID:S _ o~ lHE UlnV SITY OF ENNE S E FACULmy. of th Univ r tty F culty, upon be! de th follo ing terlal ta 11 by is' ,Of). • ord to rra e for ( e,l) tb connection 1 tter, olntmi it to • is di s t/ stled wit. tb Ol·ganie tlon a.nd thode: of rocedur of the Univere ty. (p.G) 1 • 01 s to be loyal to .. nd vi ally lIlt rost d · n, th Univ rsity (p. a) y 'I ) - ' INTERVIEW WITH DR. R. S. ELLIS June IB, 1923. estion d by D an J. D. Hoskins. Q. Doctor, I rant to ask you about so thing with r geord to th troubl w have had h r in th University. Did you att nd aDJ ot the m stings held to arrang for an invoetig tlon ot Dr. Sprl ' A. I attended one meeting that wasoe.lled by Dr. Radford in his room. to tak up the q; etion nd oonsider it, th result or ioh, a .ra.r I know, was veral me hers of th f oulty oame over and t lked to you about the propo itlon. A I und r tand th matter that i as fa.r as it went. I also att nd d another tlng w.ioh We. not at all for the purpose of oonsidering that question and I don't remember that it was especially disouss d. It was one of the regular meetings of the 100al chapter her. Dr. Glooker talk d on the quostlon of t aehers' insurano , a d the questions that came up there for aotiv disousslon did not conoern Dr. Sprowl - one was of s lari and I was a1 0 one of the oommitte that talked tb matter over with you. A far as I know there was no regular meeting r that kind. In fact, I und rstand the pol ioy of' the A. A. U. T • it i not cuato' ry tor looal ohapters to take action in such ~ ahion. Tbey eonsid r it outsid of the territory of a looa~ obapt r to do a thing of that kind. I may be mi tam n about that but that 18 m,y' underst nding. Q. D1 you a k any m mber of th t oulty to sign 1 tter asking tor an investigation? A. Y s sir, I a ked emb r if h ould b inter t d in Signing suoh a 1 tt r. Q. at did he say? 11 he said that-- 1 oou1d not t 11 you xaot1y what h said. Be offer d som r asons, ylng he thought tb thing hou1d b t ken up and thr ahed out. For s r aeon h did not oar to tak p rt in the natt r. Q. A. Q. • J • A,. Q. -z-He did not sign t h lott r? No. ho the man you d? I 118, thinking at th moment of Dr. " as that lettQr ign d r writt n I don't think so. Di you ign trAt 1 tter? n you pr s nt d it? I ,vill anaw r that queation j Dean, I did, but I w uld not r a question involving any other membor of the faoulty_ You ould raise to answer any other qu stion with r ga.rd to th faculty? I think that is fair . I 8 willing to sign such a 1 tter ;{S 1t but I don 't think I am 0 11 on to mam a stat men,t with l~eg rd to y othor mber of the faoulty_ Q. You r Head of the Department of P yoholog? A. Yes sir. • Do you oonsider YOllr obligations to lndtyidual itl 0 sea of thia kind gr tar than your obllg tlon to the University? No sir, 1 don't oonsider the obllgati n greater than to the Univ r ity but I do oonsid r my obligation a .8 to tb oonf'td nee f Prot 8or-Q. Suppes the Board of Truste 8 should sk you this ~ tion? What Clue tien? • Th one I asked you about signing the letter? A. I could not answer tha.t for anyone simply bece:us I think it is unt 1r to ask a man a question of that kind. If I hav a eon-t dential dealing with you, Dea.n, and somebcdy cow.os along and asks about that I don't ta 1 tree to expo your , oth r is it ould 00 do to thi : th only thing necessary to b ing out a thing or t t kind would bask qu etlon and very p rson would t 11 rything and If e ~er to follow that out loan e how no oonfide 8 oould be k pt- imply get a person into a tight question and h would have to oome out and t 11 all h knows about a. t ing. I may b mistaken, but that would be my attitud in question of that kl d. o. letter? A. Q. Ae aha Q. A. Q. A. Did I understand you to say that you sig d the Y tB sir. To hom that 1 tter ddr a d? I am not sure that I could giv you his nam. He is n or the e itt who usually handle suoh cas s. ot th American College Prote sors Assooiation? ~ S 81 • What era the contents of tho lettr, Dootor? It was simply a routine statement as to tb situation of us understood the matt r n request that it up in the ordinary way. as SOl tak n Q. Had you oome to the President or to m and asked what the c irc\lm8tance surrounding th cas er? A, N ir. I hadn ft. I had beard a. Qonsid rabl number ot at te nts as to what e 1e situation wa.s, of 0 urse- different opinions. It eems 0 me will never h v a teaohing profession until wh n ma.n takes a position in a unive~8ity he oan have same kind or 88eUl-ano that his cas at least oan be ta~n up and thr eh dover b,y a large number of p ople- dislnterested- before he can b discharged. I ha~ told Dr. Sprowls ther were oertain things about his teaohing that war objectionabl. I do not believe it is th thing to take up man am discharge him without more formal notioe than this. Q. Do you knOW' what b was to 14 as to why he would not b reappoint d? No sir, but I .know what be said- I kno what some members of th faoulty said ·hioh wa practioally that h did not fit into th organiz tion- s not th sort or man to do ti factory field -4-work. T t is ubsta ~i 11y 11 that I he rd 0 t~t oint. Your letter sking for the in: ti tl n S B nt out fter thi to you? Yes ir. • The atbo 0 proo dur in th Univer tty in th mployment or professors is for th I- ad of th partment- I mean professors under tb he d- to r eO!m!etldati ns to v nd the an to th President and they all agre on it and th n that roc ~ndation g up to tb cutiv C itt e of th B rd of Trustees nd then to the Board of Trustees. Now hen change are made the ha d or the d partme :t make r co en attons th r g I'd to tho oha • stating r aeons hy th ohang should be He make- , nd ti- n to his an nd that r commenda-tlon t k cour a in the fir t 0$8 .tione. How r you in sympathy th that organization? V 11, I think th re is thi bjection to be rat· d tits operatio 0 I ould like t mam mrs 1f ole r on this prticular case. hen r. Spr brought her in th middle r the y r to fill out tho unexpired term Qf Dr. Olar he 8 derinit ly und rstood to be 0 trlal-that wa my una rstandlng or th 1 tuat 1 on. I be that at the nd of this t his capacity in the y of field w k pr tty !~or gh~y l t understood. I talm d that over ith Prot or T oxat n at t~t t mye It a.nd I run ure Prot or T olmt n fe t ura he ould no eX" e. 8UOC 8 tul follower of Dr. Clark. In £ irn 8 teaohin profession he hould have b en discharg d th n nd not n • had come h r on trial 9. d it Dr. Thaokst n 11 d s ply not roc nd d him for reelection I dontt think anyone c Id h v said ord. He h d been brought on tr 1 and kn thie thing t that t • On the thar han j put on tb pay roll pr a did n t fit In. In fair 8 to th . . a regul r nand th n told he n and the teaching pr t ssion. I think h should have b n told that h did not tit in t that tim. If -5-if bad been done then I honld ct v had oritio1 . b 0 us that was what he was brought her for but it e~ to that to bring h here and tak him on and di ebe.rge h 1thout tr 1 it '1 unfair.,. ' to disc rge h· without bringing out something - nothing b been brought U l.> ither dir otly or i direotly. He 1m he s not public peaker and oould not take the plao of Protosor Clark. Q. On wbat grounds would you say w bould oontinua t kc p him on? A. My point is that you should not It in f rna 8 thi was oing to b do a.t, that t· a.nd if it g lng t b d ne after that time it as as muoh orit1.ei m of Prote or Thaek ton it of Sprowls . 'It am alao sure it was th ught he not public peaker . There are oertain things about his thod of t aohing of which I do not ppr .. Looldng at it iT m th tandpoint of th t aoher, unl s man can hay. some urety of going into e. plac that he 11 b k pt aft r he has been on probation it 1s ad tor the protessio - th t is the attltud of th A. A. lJ. P. It is not inter sted in t king n all k aping him h n he should b £'i ed. In ome cas e her n inv Btl at! n l it ·was re~ort d against the r fea r and said that be shoul bav b en klo~ d out. Some ar round gainst the Administration. It issi 11 t r a fair investigation on all sid • • Isn't it a fact that you hav b ith th rgan1zation and thod r proc dnr of tb Un ver ity? A. I will tell you th oans and extant of Itri dislatl Q. You hav be n di satierl d'l A. Y ,I will give the d tail becan, I t it to be stat mente • Thaokston oam to year r t 0 year ago nd k1 d if I ould take Professor 01a88 and k p h th r t 0 or thr . years and glv him a. ola 8 in P yoho1ogy. I bjeot d to that bee us I kn nothing about Professor Duggan and to s y that I ould k P h~ in 01 .. two yea.rs and tben tutn ear e. seotion to him we. ntiraly oont.r rr to my position as to &chola~ehtp teaching. I cbj at d very atrongly but that is bat happened. Dr . Sharp was brought. her atte r I had tcld Prot ssor Tltackston that I 1m w h could not teach Payob iogy beeaus h had net had nwgh training- , ne~t urth 0 ~s in Ge real P yeh logr- ne four hour o ours of three months. Q oourse in duo tional psyOhology. I l()ok~ rver his r cord and t ld Profe sor Thack ton he eQUid not teach g ner.l p yuh logy. I was instructed to giv him two cours ne term and one cottrss another ter,m. I objeoted to that and finally I took ever both ctions for the second term and got long pr tty w. 11 d ~ite or the fi ot that I had Q large number. I arranged to get Dr. Spr 7.1 t o 0 over and take some of t.heork. I have n objection to Dr . Sharp. E . wa tra1aed in n;u-$.1 psyohology'~ B had a hard time in one sectIon of pflyohology. litter I had prote t d I did not think it wa . tau- to give him that work a.ny way. Thi.s year the st\flle thing has happe$d exa pt with ome little deviation. I a.m interest d Ki:klur;; i.n laY work • and I don t like to. see a man put in obi rg oroolleg olass unles be has had pretty good training for that course. There 1s one other thing and this will oonclude y di.s atlsfaotion with my end 0 th· situation. Professor Thaokst n ba b n orting to get th Dpart-manta or ~syebology and Eduotion C . ' • Q. He do you know that, 11 made the suggestion to me. Be tal d th pr pcaitlon over witb Dr . Sprowls . I know, though nobody ha.s told ba talk$d th matter over with you' Q. At my roque t? A. • I don t know ho broach d the subject . I - , that be tal d th matter ov r t11 me the first year I we. hr. As I . have point d out, I be i tV you will find if' you w).ll take tl to go into the matt er tbat p YOhology what er it de£' cta may b 1s aiming to bas 1 no n as uch i a th n nything. It 10 in no se d pend nt on cation e soi no . And h r t th ri"k ot being egotietlc 1, I obj t to b lng placed unci r I '. Dr a Tbaok8t n . I don t obje - to ,~ ome an thoroughly tr 1ned but I do objeot to 00 lng pl oed und r man no baa not h d nuoh training as I hav had. In the past. t 0 yea.rs I hay had that ituation to deal with. I teel that I would like to have a quality f ~ork of a high rd r. I ca.n't hav unl I bav someboqy ther qualified to do g od ork. I h ve b en die ti it d on that acco nt . I don ' t e how any n 0 -ld be therwi~ . Did you hav anything to di wit.h furnishing matartal fo til publloation J1TruthM either direo·tly or indirectly? A. No. I had nootlon of anything ike the.t coming u nt11 Dr . Spr 18 a k d if I had sa n the ttTruth" . I got a. oopy d it 0'\1 r nd I have had absolutely nothing to do ith it . Q. Did you have a.ny lks ith • P 1 CAmf!~Pnn about th Uni er tty in whioh you oritiolz d tb Un! rsity? I had a talk ith Mr . C eron in hloh I criticized th Universl y- I would not s :y direotly. Mr. Camel' n and I a.t't') n 1 hbo%'a on th tr t, and often di owu, things . At tb time this matter e up I di cue d it but oould not t 11 '1' u h t I aid or did not ay to 1 • I reme her th que tiOD Dame up" how vcr I and disoll sed it some littl time . W have a little card olub th t ery e k and re me hers and e aoh ther fraq ently and ther er disouss ions and I could not t 11 you wh t I sai.d beoause I ttaohed no 19ntricance to it . T 11 us wh t you bav bad to do with d ing P ot tb o t1tutlon of th Univ ralty? A. Fr nkly. very 11 ttl . The tact of the t ter i I might almost say noth • At on of the ting ber tb qu siion of 8 1ary consider Dr. ul nia. said h had wrltt n fl lett r to th Pr ident -8-suggesting eertain changes and that was about all there 11'8.8 to that. At anotr~r meeting the question was brought up again and be said he either had a letter or had seen the President and the President had invited him to go around and talk to the members or the faculty and get their reaction. Some time later ~ perhaps a week, he came to my office and said be had seen about forty men and I judge I was about the last man, and he spent most of the time telling me what had been su.ggested to him and I made no additions to what he said. I believe this- that an institution like this woula get along better if the faculty felt a little more interest and a little more responsibility in the organization or things. Q. Are you expressing your own feelings when you say it would be better 1£ there was a little more interest in the faculty rganization? A. Yes sir. There are a good many members who take this attitude. They go to their classes and Sk8a teaoh their elas es and go home and feel that that is about all there is to it. It may be a defect or not ot ~ own character but I am vitally interested in the University. You seem to gather I am hostile to the University but I want you to understand I am a native or the State and interested in the University. Q. You can not 88SlllD8 that I am thinking anrt,hing. I am just asking you some q,.st~ons to see what you have to say about it? A. All right, to come back to this, I am vitally interested in the state and would like to Ifee the educational system of Tennessee equal to that of' any other state. I want to be perfectly frank about this as it 1s part or my business to think about educational problems. I am interested in the application ei' mental tests in operation and as a result of that I see things I don it believe other people see and I believe it is ~ duty to express treely such criticism. as I may have even in m, clas.88 with the idea that unless things are criticized we shall never bave a~ tmprovement. I I don t know of an, system by which those defects can be removed. • publio t All t -9-80 1 t .,nt 1 teo and r popul rand th t the tudy or Gr k. qu tioD ot hether th ~at c is • Gre i v er of t n't, is goo Iv is qu etton or -f go 11 and Inc (;ts th n'lll.llbel' L'1. our sohool 19 br • T r inly n bar qf the. p ulation qualif If t g t tb :vora e stu nt ge n o a 0, n d.o the rk. 11m los n I agr it is t tt r i • lar . number of our stu ents 0 r inc ti • o. 1 don It thil"..k tb t P rtio lar thing is Tal :. That thing 'Ii . ~ took before the faoulty and thre . ~ d cut an . the 011 g '~;'f Lib r 1 Xrts by vot deoi to put it back. A. I unde at nd that tInt 1 i qu stion that 0 down to thi .' l' striation • • ".ng nd loan critioizing. It is part Qr th Un '"1"8 ty progr • • fiere is a thi t L of whioh you re mb .1". Yo yd c I d!aagre . Do you go b tore yo lr 01a,98 a crlt10iz that? Q. pure ed p operty inc yo h d di",_ ..... ",.",f Bnd 80 urag d? I 8.y he:v just 8 -10-• id Y u ever up n t lx t r anybody 7 A I have t lk: d to b th t y u 1 ttor ab ut ieh I 8 t 1 t · • th b If I 00 \1 bav so a ur no of tnt woul b dirt r TIt Q. the b s-t 'i told yo () ld do 'high typ ~ A. I don't fe 1 that th ~lo ant or D • u 0: Q. emplo" d h t v ry rnal ha.v tb nd • If did 0'\ A, Th re ere s ho could. hav tnt h 0 ":;'~ ~ s. til d lt mor (~ . He a mploy d for nly on yo • A. I up against th am thl arr nad VIa in s Q. Did you tt nd any of th m • 1ng <Gh t • Soh if rIa hou e? No s r. Q. '1'h only me inc you ai;,tJ no h d in • t :t..9. lord t r and./ hiob • R. dioX'd PI" d? y, 8 sir, nd leo nother of: t 10 1 A ~ • U. P. at which other things No for the p po e of dlsou sing this propo i.tion in any ha exo pt tb one t • Radford'a an I attend d only that on • • r you on th 00 itt ot tbr urgi he; n estlga on or his 0 8 • I ny 00 t • • Di A.-ut". Q. lnv • -1 -I t Id him i would b . d ir bl thing. I auld not 1m to do it. Yo tigat n? y sir. in t Id d ire.b e thing to h tho You told h t t riot kno ing wh t the e1roumsta 8 r but t A. • • • W 11 ! thought that a oorrect. In other word it e fr m Dr. Radford. fir Dr. Spr _181 Dro RaM r and Dr. Spr l? Ii • • As to the oonte of ttl tter that s nt ut- did you ay that you sent that letter etor? A. I did n • say. • • A. • D"d yo~ nd it? A a of t 11 The lett r B nt? I t It it was. you 1m nything that s ide ~othi only the or 1 1'y form of r o ent th lett 1'1 I i1 d it. I signed it. st. I t ld ou earlier I could net a.nswer a qu tion like that. ? Iter the cont nt or that 1 tter? A. Asking tor an inv etigation. n Hoek! hat 18 11. 

Interview with Dr. R.S. Ellis Questioned by Dean J.D. Hoskins

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Interview with Dr. R.S. Ellis Questioned by Dean J.D. Hoskins

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