Hanif Kureishi, author of the screenplay of My Beauliful Launderette and Sammy and Rosie Get Laid as well as numerous stage plays, was in Barcelona in June 1991 to promote his first novel The Buddha of Suburhia

Hand, Felicity

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OVERTURNING IMPERIAL VIEWS A TALK WITH HANIF KUREISHI Felicity Hand Universilat Auldnoma de Barcelonu Hanif Kurcishi, author of thc scrccnplay of My Beauliful Luundereffc and Surnmy and Rosie Ger h i d  as wcll as nuincrous siagc plays, was in Barcelona in Junc 1991 to promotc his first novcl The Buddha of Suburhia. F.H. What incdiuin do you h l  most comfortablc in, prose or drama? H..K. Wcll, I'vc just written a film called London Kills Me, which 1 directed myself, so that was anothcr new direction and I've written for the theme and done many things but 1 get bored doing just one. 1 like to do many things and 1 feel comfortable doing many rathcr than doing just one and if 1 just wanted to write novels or write films then 1 would do that bu1 1 like to work in a numbcr of difierent forms. It's always given me more plcasurc than dcvoting mysclf to one aclivity bccauseoncof the bcauties of writing lhat is vcry dilTicult and vcry csscntial is having a talcnt for isolation and having a talent for being on your own and of' course 1 cnjoy that, but at thc samc time 1 enjoy h e  process of collabordtion, of working with olhcrpcoplc, working wilh actors especially, as1 have donc with actors in thc Lhcalrcand in films. This isa long way round of saying that 1 enjoy doing evcrything that 1 do, othcrwise 1 wouldn't do it. F.H. The fact that you do not stick to onc particular genre but instead use a multiplicity oi mcdia sccms io suggcst lhc multiplicity of cultures that make up post-war Britain. Would you agrce with this? H.K. 1 don'l know if'thcrc's any dircclcon&~uencc b twccn thosc Ihings, bu1 oneof h e  intcrcsting cxcurrcnccs in England tcxlay is Lhe numbcr of wrilcrs, film directors and actors and so on, who iuc cincrging from diI'fcrcnt colonial backgrounds in a numberof diffcrcnt Iorms and of coursc thcsc wrilcrs and arlisis arc vcry inlcrcsting bccause thc storics thcy'vc told, ~ h c  storics thcy'rc tclling, arcnots~orics that havc bcen told bcforc, so I'm Itx~king f'orwar(l toa wholcrangcof filmsand storics from thcncw Britain, which isa mixcd Britain, which is, as you say,a multicullural Britain, rcprcscnting wholeareas of our socicty lhat havcn't bccn rcprcscntcd bcforc. Onc of thc ~hings that excited me whcn 1 was writing My Beaufiful Laundereue was that 1 was very aware when 1 was doing this film thatthcse storics rally hadn'lbcen told beforeand in tcn years' time, this will only sccin, 1 hopc, likc thc bcginning of a flowering of multiculrurism in British culturc. F.H. Would you acccpt $1 you havccertain similarities in stylc with Salman Rushdie? 1s thisbecausc youarcboth uying torcvealtheinjusticcsandprcjudicesthatexist in what pcoplc belicvc lo bc a tolcrant counuy? H.K. 1 fccl that wc'rc quitc diffcrcnt writers. 1 mcan, hc's an Indian writer really and I'm a Brilish writcr. Hc's a man who was brought up in India and I'm a man who was brought up in thc Soulh London suburbs and 1 think our vicw of liic and our mcthods of work arcquitcdifScrcnt. 1 would bedeeply flatlercd Lo bccompared toaman 1 admue as much as 1 do him. But 1 wouldn't say there was anylhing similar between us. The only similarity bctwecn Timothy Mo, Ishiguro, Salman and myself and the others that are emerging, is thal we have somc sort of pcrhaps colonial or other or foreign background but of course this kind of thing has bccn happcning in theunited States for many ycarstoo, it is only that it is the first time in Britain that English IiteratureorEnglish iilm making is now full of pcoplc with iorcign namcs. I'm not conscious of imitating his stylcatall. 1 don't think we havc similarconccms. Fortunately forhim he has a whole Indian aspcct to his lifc which gives his work a dcpth and rcsonance from another place which my work lacks. F.H. Do think that thc avcrrigc whitc Briton is awarc of thc cultural connict young Asians in thc U K  must facc? H.K. 1 don't know how inuch anybody in Britain knows a b u t  the insidc of Asian families rcally at all. 1 know thcrc's a ncw soap opcra coming out coon in Britain about Asian familics' but 1 think until now Asian lifc has bccn a complete mystery to English whitc people. 1 think when thc conuovcrsy over The Sufclnic Verses happened and the book bumings and thc atacks on Salinan ... but 1 think pcoplc were deeply shocked by this and also had no undcrstanding oí  how important Islam was in pcople's lives and what it mcant LO them and how important it was for thcm tocling to that in a country they saw thcmsclves as bcing alicn in, in a socicty they saw as bcing in many ways hostile to thcm, and 1 think thrit, 1 hopc, Lhat thc wholc incidcnt, tragic, crucl and vicious though it wa$, pcrhaps in soinc ways will hclp to cducatc pcoplc about Islam and what it mcans and 1 think what a dangcr it may bc within sccular dcmocratic socicties in the West in thc ncxt tcn ycars. F.H. Karim, in Thc Buddha qf Suburbio, docsn't sccm lo bc at al1 proud of his Indian origins. Docs hc rcprcscnt this cultural connict in sccond or third gcneration migranls? H.K. 1 think it's morc to do with thc way my gcneration l'elt. When 1 meet 18 year-old Indians and Pakistanisnow 1 iccl they have a much bctcr undcrstanding of theu history, thcir rcligion and their placc in British socicty han 1 cvcr did bccausc my fathcr wantcd my sistcr and 1 lo bc brought up almosi cntirely English and hc fclt lhis would hclp us to fit in, so wc didn't havc any suong scnsc ofour cultural background from that side ' Family Pride ~>roduccd by Zia Mohycddin, firsi shown on Chiinncl4 on 30 Jiinc 1991. of us. Hc thought wc should bcabsorbcd and bc as English as thc English and this would hclp us gct on. 1 don't think hc rcaliscd how much we would rcgrct and fccl the loss of Lhat sidc of oursclvcs latcr on. Pcoplc are rnorc awarc of it now cspccially in schools whcrc thc cmphasis on multicul~ural, multiracial education is much grcatcr han when 1 was young, whcn thcrc was no such thing. Whcrc the racism in h e  school was something that was cntircly unchcckcd and espccially from h e  leachcrs as well. They had no intcrcst in any rcligion but their own. 1 like to think and hope that things have changcd, cspccially in aiucation. F.H. Karim is biscxual bu1 his malc lovers are always white. Does lhis suggest that he feclsthc nccd lo subjugütc the whitc man in the same way that theEuropeanor American coloniscrs 'use<lY black womcn mcrcly for thcir pleasurc? H.K. Wcll, hc only has onc lovcr in thc book anyway, Charlic, but the ihing about growing up in South London al thc timc was that you didn't really mect any Asian p p l c ,  you didn't rcally mecl any black people bccause that part oilondon wasn't like that. Obviously, hcre wcre fricnds of my father's and my family's that 1 knew round and about a bit, bu1 thcrc wcrc very few. 1 had a couple of Asian friends but mostly at that time in that part of England thcre were harcily any black or Asian people, which is pcrhaps why 1 fcli alone and isolatai. F.H. Actually 1 was including Terry among Karim's loversas, allhough therelationship is not consummalcd, thcrc is no lack of wing on his part. Thcrc's no idea of revenge, thcn, of Kariin's 'gctting his own back' by using whitc mcn? H.K. 1 think thcrc's rnorc of that in My Beauliful Luunderelle than in The Buddha of Suhurbia bu1 thcrc iniglit bc an clcrncnt of that in that book as wcll. My Beaulijiul Launderellc is inuch rnorc conccmcd with rcinslating cerlain pwcr, gctling pwcr ovcr thosc who had pwcr ovcr you in thc past and 1 lhink lhat thc charactcr ofOmar is very much conccmcd with rccs~blishing his own powcr ovcr thc whitc charactcr, Johnny, and that suugglc bc~wccn thcin is much rnorc nakcdly a powcr issuc than the issucs in The Buddha o f  Suhurbicl. F.H. In My Becluliful Launderctte and ?'he Buddhcl ofSuhurhia thc question of mangcd marriagcs ariscs. Tania Icavcs homc bu1 Jamila givcs in and marries the husband chosen ior hcr by hcr fathcr. How do young Asian girls brought up in thc UK nowadays react LO arrangd marriagcs'? Do thcy acccpt lhat thcir parcnLs have thc right lo interfcre with lhcir livcs? In othcr words, to what cxtcnl do thcy idcntify with thcir uaditions and lhe conccpt of loyalty to thc Iamily? H.K. To bc honcst, it's notsorncthing 1 know vcry much about. Oneofthe things Lhat's happcncd to me as I'vc grown older is that 1 rcally fccl I've lost touch with Asian life in Briilun. I suppsc bmusc whcn 1 was growing up, thconly conract 1 had with al1 that was lhrough my family, iny fathcr, my unctcs, iny cousins,and soon, but as I'vegrown older, I'vc movcd away froin ihat and mostly al1 the Asians and black people 1 know are rather like me, pcople who work in thc media. They're film directors, and writers, and actors and so on. So onc of thc uagcdics in a way of becoming a wnter, or a successful writer, is you lose touch with the things that got you there in thc fust place and 1 think it's happcncd to mc in a way so it would be vcry foolish o€ meto pronounce on the lives of young Asian womcn in Bradlord, or Southall, Lciccstcr or whcrever, when in fact 1 haye no contact with thcsc pcoplc at all. F.H. As thc subjcct camc up in two of your works 1 was undcr the impression that you felt quitc suongly aboul it. H.K. I t  was soincthing that happcncd to two young woincn 1 kncw whcn 1 was a kid, whcn 1 was a tccnagcr, and 1 wasn'l cvcn thinking of gctting marricd at thc timc and 1 rcmcmbcr thatthcy wcrcand oncofthcwomcn 1 kncw,oncof thegirls 1 kncw, wasbeing haulcd inio an arrangcd marriagc and hcr lathcr had gonc on a hungcr suikc and that's whcrc 1 got the idca for i'he Buddha of Suhurhia. It was somcthing that sccmcd very shocking to me al that timc bccausc thc amount of oppression lhat was involved in it, the amount of powcr that was bcing puton hcr, secmed lo inc lo bc quite frightening and the life shc was bcing forccd into, sccmcd to bcnol what soinconcof herageshouldbe going into. F.H. Docs Jamila givc in out of loyalty Lo hcr family and to Asian traditions? H.K. [laughingl No,I lhink shcdocs itoulofpcrversity,d(xsn't shc?! And also shedocs it becausc that's how Lhc plot has Lo work. 1 don't think she feels parlicularly loyal Lo her tradition. Aftcr all, wadition is somcthing you make as wcll as you inherit. If there are traditions in Briiain, certain idcas, of Land of Hope and Glory, impcrialism and so on, thcre's also anothcr uadition in Briiain of disscnt, of radicalism, of socialism and argument, debate and soon. The notion ofuadition is a vcry spunous one which is often used like rcligion to oppress pcoplc, so 1 don't ihink shc'd bc very into hat. F.H. In Bird,~ of Pnssage, Asif, the lodgcr, eventually takcs over the house including its inhabitíints. Arc you suggcsiing a kind of reversal of afhirs as rcgards ~ h c  British Raj? That is, the mastcrs in India havc now bccomc thc slavcs in Briiain? A similiir idca is exprcsscd in My Benutiful Laundereue in thc scnsc that Johnny, much to his mates' horror, is actually working for a 'Paki'. H.K. Ycs, wcll, that idca in Bird.sofPa,ssc~ge was onc 1 latcrdid dcvclop in My Beautiful Laundereue. 1 supposc it's bccausc thc vicw most pcoplc had of Asian pcople was of thcm bcing thcse poor, povcny-suickcn, brokcn-down victims and of course, thcre's a lotof uuth in ~ a t  vicw but in my own family, the Asian, the Pakistani Briton that 1 knew was nothing to do with that. Thcy owned businesses, thcy were intellectuals, teachers and writers and it scemcd daft for ine to write about Asians who wcre broken-down victims from Bangladcsh crawling around thc East End, whcn in fact the p p l e  1 knew were running laundcrcttcs. Thcsc ironics of coursc intcrcsted mc vcry much but at Lhe samc timc it sccincd to mcas uucapicturcas thcothcr. Asa writcr you writcabout what intcres~s you and 1 likcd thc irony of ovcnuming h e  imperial vicws espccially at a time whcn in Briuiin therc wcre so many íilms likeA Room WifhA View,A Passage to India, Thc Par Pavilions and The Raj Quartet, which al1 showed Britain in a certain sort of glory, a cerkin son of doininalion, sort of perfection of a past, al1 hose teacup films, which sccmcd Lo mc LO bc rathcr loathsome. What inlcrcslcd mc more was what was aclually happcning in Briiain at the timc. It scemcd lo me much, much richcr. F.H. Asif actually dcspises poor Pakistani immigranls instead of feeling some kind of solidarity wilh thcm. As Salim says in My Beautiful Laundereffe, 'we're nothing in England without moncy'. Do you agree that racism is basically a consequence of economic rcasons? H.K. Well, I suppose thal onc of thc things that happens is that people think of Indian people or Pakisiani pcoplc or Bangladeshi peoplc somchow as being al1 the same. It would be as if thcy'd mct a roadswcepcr and PrinccPhiiip and thoughl ihat just because they wcrc English, thcy would havc somcthing in common. Thcy wouldn't undcrstand thc divisions in lhcsc communi~ics wcrc also bascd on class, on rctigion, on cconomic status as in any olhcr scxicly. What 1 wanlcd lo show was thal thcrc's prcjudice, thcrc's discriininalion, violcnccag¿uns~ininori1y groups in Asian socicticsas wcll,quitcclcürly, bu1 thc rcxtl divisions, thc mostpowcrful divisions, lhc ultimalcdivisions, arccconomic. Thcy prcvcnl pcoplc gclling powcr. You can't conlrol thc law, you can3 conuol thc judiciary, busincss, cducalion and so on unlcss you havc powcr and thal's whcre racism always sccmcd io me to bc al i ~ s  mosl crucl because it prcvcntcd you from making anylhing of your lifc and conuolling your own dcstiny and that d your own people. Thcrcforc, of course thc cconoinic argumcnt in the end is the most powerful one against racism bccausc it prcvcnls anyonc living thcir life to the full in the society as it is. Thcrearc fonns ofricism which arc justbascd on haved of aparticularrace,ap~icular colour, a particular culturc and Lhcse arc obviously noxious, unpleasant but there's anothcr fonn ofracisin which involvcs pulling down a wholc racc cconomically, which is an cvcn worsc phcnoincnon. Barcelona, 1 I lh  June 1991 

Overturning imperial views : a talk with Hanif Kureishi

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