Altermann, Wladyslaw

English

Universität München: Elektronischen Publikationen

949 
Geologische Rundschau 76/3 I 949-950 I Stuttgart 1987 
The Upper Paleozoic pebbly mudstone facies of peninsular Thailand and 
western Malaysia - Continental margin deposits of Paleoeurasia - Reply. 
By WLADYSLAW ALTERMANN, Berlin::) 
I am sorry that I ,,missed the point,, in some of my 
remarks on STAUFFERS and LEES (1984) evidences f o r  
glacial origin of the pebbly mudstones. I hope to cor- 
rect it in the following reply. 
In the paper on the pebbly mudstone deposits of 
Thailand and Malaysia (Geol. Rdsch. 75/2, 371-381) 
1 tried to show that the circumstantial evidence for 
the glaciomarine origin of these sediments is mis- 
construed and all the ,,hints,, do not necessarily sup- 
port the glaciomarine origin. I have also listed some 
points which indicate a non glacial origin of the 
pebbly mudstones. Although I was unable to com- 
pletely exclude the possibility of glacial influence on 
these sediments (the arguments used were always 
negative), the important point is that in STAUFrERS 
and LEES discussion they were not able to give any 
positive arguments which would definately evidence 
for glaciomarine origin. 
My detailed replies to STAUFFERS and LEES com- 
ments are listed below: 
1. I agree that the time range and the thickness of 
the pebbly mudstones are not well known, but this 
does not allow us to estimate these measurements to 
fit our preferred theories. The time range of Early/ 
Middle Devonian to Early/Middle Carboniferous 
(BURTON, 1983) or the whole of the Carboniferous 
(TANTIWANIT, et al. 1983) has been discussed on the 
basis of regional arguments and fossil data. MITC~t- 
ELL et al. (1970) have found rugose coral and the trilo- 
bite C y r t o y m b o l e  (War ibole)  pe r l i sens i s  in 
their facies ,,D,, (pebbly mudstones) and estimated 
this fauna to be Late Devonian. To date, no other age 
has been proven for the pebbly mudstones. The ,,pre- 
sence of a major disconformity with a large time gap,, 
of course can not be ruled out, but no evidence is 
found in the field. 
BUNOVAS ~ VELLA (1984) are the workers who 
identified Australia as the Late Paleozoic ,,neighbor,~ 
of the Shan Thai Craton. BURRET ~ STAIT (1984) 
proposed a similar position for the Early Paleozoic. 
*) Author's address: W. ALT~RMANN, Freie Universit~it Ber- 
lin, Institut fiir Angewandte Geologie, Wichernstrat~e 16, 
D-1000 Berlin 33. 
Wherever the position of the ~,Shan Thai Craton,, 
was, the time span of 40-75 m.y. is too long for the 
depositon of glaciomarine dropstones. 
2. The character of megaclasts can only be dis- 
cussed after extensive and statistically representative 
studies. 
3. The evidence of deposition in relatively deep 
water in the Phuket area is given by the occurrence 
of turbiditic layers. Here, of course no record of 
grounded ice can be expected. On Langkawi Island 
and in the Kaeng Krachan area the situation is differ- 
ent. In the marginal marine to tidal flat deposits (LEE 
pers. comm., Pulau Ular) and in areas where strand 
placers (TANTIXVANIT pers. comm., Kaeng Krachan 
area) were deposited, fossil moraines, striated boul- 
ders and roches moutonnees or other glacial struc- 
tures should be common. 
4. Of course the ,,Early Permian cool water fauna,~ 
from Phuket and Ko Phi Phi is ,,contemporaneous 
with the Asselian glacial deposits of Gondwana,, 
(WATERI~OUSE 1982) but the conclusions of 
WATEt~HOUSE (1982) paper are unequivocal. Besides 
this, GRANT (1976) examined the brachiopod fauna 
from the Rat Burilimestone (Sakmarian to Kazanian) 
which covers the pebbly mudstones. His analysis 
shows that these brachiopods lived under tropical 
conditions. 
If the Permian coral found by FONTAINE (1984) in 
Sumatra is from a different tectonic block, where is 
the suture connecting this block with the rest of 
Sumatra? The Walchia  p i n i f o r m i s  SCHLOTHEI~ 
flora from the Trang coast area in Thailand (Bt3NOPAS 
VELLA 1984) evidences euramerican provenance of 
this part of SE Asia. 
5. No diamonds were found in the pebbly 
mudstones. If they were dropstones from icebergs 
into the marine mud how strong were they concen- 
trated in the ice and in the pebbly mudstone to form 
a placer, after being reworked and resedimented on 
at least third deposit. Many of the diamondiferous 
kimberlite pipes on former Gondwanaland and 
Eurasia are younger than Paleozoic. Whichever is 
correct, the occurrence of diamonds in the pebbly 
mudstones would neither prove their glaciomarine 
W. ALTERMANN 
origin nor the Gondwana provenance of these sedi- 
ments. 
I agree with STAUfFeR ~ Lrz that the model drawn 
in my figure 5. is highly speculative. It is called 
,,speculative interpretation,. Using the paleomagne- 
tic results of BUNOPAS & VELLA (1980) against this 
model it should also be mentioned that these authors 
claim a clockwise rotation of more than 180 degrees 
for the Shan Thai Craton, while crossing the Paleo- 
tethys. For the Carboniferous position, a paleo- 
latitude of 13 degrees S and for the Permian 19 degrees 
S are given (BI3NOVAS 1981). In this case we should 
also find glaciomarine sediments on the present east- 
ern edge of this craton. The paleomagnetic results by 
Mc ELHINNX et al. (1974) give the Paleozoic position 
of the Malay Peninsula a paleolatitude of 15 degrees 
N. 
All the ,,evidences,, for the glaciomarine origin of 
the pebbly mudstones are too poor to call the strata 
definately glaciomarine. Judging from circumstantial 
speculations is attractive but unreliable. Circumstan- 
tial evidence is good but direct evidence is better. 
References 
References already cited in ALTE~MANN, Geol. Rdsch. 
75/2, 371-381 and in STAI3FrERS & LEtS discussion are not 
repeated in the list below. 
BUNOI'AS, S. (1981): Paleogeographic history of western 
Thailand and adjacent parts of Southeast Asia: A plate 
tectonic interpretation. - Geol. Surv. Paper No.: 5, spec. 
issue, Geol. Surv. Dev., DMR, Bangkok, Thailand, 810 pp. 
Btn~TON, C. K. (1983): Stratigraphy and correlation of the 
Middle to Late Paleozoic in peninsular Thailand. - Proc. 
Workshop Strat. Correl. Thailand and Malaysia., 2, Had 
Yai, Thailand, Sept. 1983. 
Bm~I~ET, C. ~ STAIT, B. (1984): Southeast Asia as a part of 
Early Paleozoic Gondwanaland. - GEOSEA V Proc. 
Vol. 1, Geol. Soc. Malaysia Bull. 19, April 1986, 103-107. 
GV, ANT, R. E. (1976): Permian brachiopods from southern 
Thailand. -J .  Paleont. 50, Part II of II, Suppl. to No.:3, 
The Paleont. Soc. Mere. 269pp. 
Mc ELHINNY~ M. W., HAILE, N. S. & CRAWFORD, A. R. 
(1974): Paleomagnetic evidence shows Malay Peninsula 
was not a part of Gondwanaland. - Nature, 252, Dec. 20/ 
27, 641-645. 


The Upper Paleozoic pebbly mudstone facies of peninsular Thailand and western Malaysia - Continental margin deposits of Paleoeurasia - Reply

Open Access LMU

949 Geologische Rundschau 76/3 I 949-950 I Stuttgart 1987 The Upper Paleozoic pebbly mudstone facies of peninsular Thailand and western Malaysia - Continental margin deposits of Paleoeurasia - Reply. By WLADYSLAW ALTERMANN, Berlin::) I am sorry that I ,,missed the point,, in some of my remarks on STAUFFERS and LEES (1984) evidences fo r  glacial origin of the pebbly mudstones. I hope to cor- rect it in the following reply. In the paper on the pebbly mudstone deposits of Thailand and Malaysia (Geol. Rdsch. 75/2, 371-381) 1 tried to show that the circumstantial evidence for the glaciomarine origin of these sediments is mis- construed and all the ,,hints,, do not necessarily sup- port the glaciomarine origin. I have also listed some points which indicate a non glacial origin of the pebbly mudstones. Although I was unable to com- pletely exclude the possibility of glacial influence on these sediments (the arguments used were always negative), the important point is that in STAUFrERS and LEES discussion they were not able to give any positive arguments which would definately evidence for glaciomarine origin. My detailed replies to STAUFFERS and LEES com- ments are listed below: 1. I agree that the time range and the thickness of the pebbly mudstones are not well known, but this does not allow us to estimate these measurements to fit our preferred theories. The time range of Early/ Middle Devonian to Early/Middle Carboniferous (BURTON, 1983) or the whole of the Carboniferous (TANTIWANIT, et al. 1983) has been discussed on the basis of regional arguments and fossil data. MITC~t- ELL et al. (1970) have found rugose coral and the trilo- bite Cyr toymbole  (Waribole) per l isensis in their facies ,,D,, (pebbly mudstones) and estimated this fauna to be Late Devonian. To date, no other age has been proven for the pebbly mudstones. The ,,pre- sence of a major disconformity with a large time gap,, of course can not be ruled out, but no evidence is found in the field. BUNOVAS ~ VELLA (1984) are the workers who identified Australia as the Late Paleozoic ,,neighbor,~ of the Shan Thai Craton. BURRET ~ STAIT (1984) proposed asimilar position for the Early Paleozoic. *) Author's address: W. ALT~RMANN, Freie Universit~it Ber- lin, Institut fiir Angewandte Geologie, Wichernstrat~e 16, D-1000 Berlin 33. Wherever the position of the ~,Shan Thai Craton,, was, the time span of 40-75 m.y. is too long for the depositon of glaciomarine dropstones. 2. The character of megaclasts can only be dis- cussed after extensive and statistically representative studies. 3. The evidence of deposition in relatively deep water in the Phuket area is given by the occurrence of turbiditic layers. Here, of course no record of grounded ice can be expected. On Langkawi Island and in the Kaeng Krachan area the situation is differ- ent. In the marginal marine to tidal flat deposits (LEE pers. comm., Pulau Ular) and in areas where strand placers (TANTIXVANIT pers. comm., Kaeng Krachan area) were deposited, fossil moraines, striated boul- ders and roches moutonnees or other glacial struc- tures should be common. 4. Of course the ,,Early Permian cool water fauna,~ from Phuket and Ko Phi Phi is ,,contemporaneous with the Asselian glacial deposits of Gondwana,, (WATERI~OUSE 1982) but the conclusions of WATEt~HOUSE (1982) paper are unequivocal. Besides this, GRANT (1976) examined the brachiopod fauna from the Rat Burilimestone (Sakmarian to Kazanian) which covers the pebbly mudstones. His analysis shows that these brachiopods lived under tropical conditions. If the Permian coral found by FONTAINE (1984) in Sumatra is from a different ectonic block, where is the suture connecting this block with the rest of Sumatra? The Walchia p in i formis  SCHLOTHEI~ flora from the Trang coast area in Thailand (Bt3NOPAS VELLA 1984) evidences euramerican provenance of this part of SE Asia. 5. No diamonds were found in the pebbly mudstones. If they were dropstones from icebergs into the marine mud how strong were they concen- trated in the ice and in the pebbly mudstone to form a placer, after being reworked and resedimented on at least third deposit. Many of the diamondiferous kimberlite pipes on former Gondwanaland and Eurasia are younger than Paleozoic. Whichever is correct, the occurrence of diamonds in the pebbly mudstones would neither prove their glaciomarine W. ALTERMANN origin nor the Gondwana provenance of these sedi- ments. I agree with STAUfFeR ~ Lrz that the model drawn in my figure 5. is highly speculative. It is called ,,speculative interpretation,. Using the paleomagne- tic results of BUNOPAS & VELLA (1980) against his model it should also be mentioned that these authors claim a clockwise rotation of more than 180 degrees for the Shan Thai Craton, while crossing the Paleo- tethys. For the Carboniferous position, a paleo- latitude of 13 degrees S and for the Permian 19 degrees S are given (BI3NOVAS 1981). In this case we should also find glaciomarine s diments on the present east- ern edge of this craton. The paleomagnetic results by Mc ELHINNX et al. (1974) give the Paleozoic position of the Malay Peninsula paleolatitude of 15 degrees N. All the ,,evidences,, for the glaciomarine origin of the pebbly mudstones are too poor to call the strata definately glaciomarine. Judging from circumstantial speculations is attractive but unreliable. Circumstan- tial evidence is good but direct evidence is better. References References already cited in ALTE~MANN, Geol. Rdsch. 75/2, 371-381 and in STAI3FrERS & LEtS discussion are not repeated in the list below. BUNOI'AS, S. (1981): Paleogeographic history of western Thailand and adjacent parts of Southeast Asia: A plate tectonic interpretation. - Geol. Surv. Paper No.: 5, spec. issue, Geol. Surv. Dev., DMR, Bangkok, Thailand, 810 pp. Btn~TON, C. K. (1983): Stratigraphy and correlation ofthe Middle to Late Paleozoic inpeninsular Thailand. - Proc. Workshop Strat. Correl. Thailand and Malaysia., 2, Had Yai, Thailand, Sept. 1983. Bm~I~ET, C. ~ STAIT, B. (1984): Southeast A ia as a part of Early Paleozoic Gondwanaland. - GEOSEA V Proc. Vol. 1, Geol. Soc. Malaysia Bull. 19, April 1986, 103-107. GV, ANT, R. E. (1976): Permian brachiopods from southern Thailand. - J .  Paleont. 50, Part II of II, Suppl. to No.:3, The Paleont. Soc. Mere. 269pp. Mc ELHINNY~ M. W., HAILE, N. S. & CRAWFORD, A. R. (1974): Paleomagnetic evidence shows Malay Peninsula was not a part of Gondwanaland. - Nature, 252, Dec. 20/ 27, 641-645. 

Paleogeographic history of western Thailand and adjacent parts of Southeast Asia: A plate tectonic interpretation.

Paleomagnetic evidence shows Malay Peninsula was not a part of Gondwanaland.

Permian brachiopods from southern Thailand.

Southeast Asia as a part of Early Paleozoic Gondwanaland. - GEOSEA V Proc.

Stratigraphy and correlation of the Middle to Late Paleozoic in peninsular Thailand.

http://epub.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5460/1/Altermann_Wladyslaw_5460.pdf

The Upper Paleozoic pebbly mudstone facies of peninsular Thailand and western Malaysia - Continental margin deposits of Paleoeurasia - Reply

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