Bachmann, Anna-Theresa

Rienhoff, Jannik

<intR>²Dok

Egypt: Homosexuality is legal – but not allowed verfassungsblog.de /egypt-homosexuality-is-legal-but-not-allowed/Interview with Islam Khalifa, attorney in Cairo What does the judicial training in Egypt look like and what steps did you personally take to become alawyer?Regulations in Egypt only allows one to practice law after becoming a member of the Bar Association of Egypt orbecoming a member of one of the judicial entities. However, no adequate training is given to law practitioners,neither attorneys nor judges, as both the Bar Association and judicial entities have long ago given up their role ofproducing competent individuals or developing the skills and legal knowledge of their members. Hence, in theabsence of any institutional preparation, it is entirely up to law practitioners whether to develop and evolve or not,as there is no mentoring in this regard. In fact, it is not at all difficult to get a license to practice law in Egypt: thechallenging part remains being able to competently handle your case as well as highlighting questionable laws.The Bar Association in Egypt, unlike most countries, does not require a mandatory exam or an obligatorypostgraduate course for admission. It only requires some documents and a payment, which is considered to bea large sum for fresh graduates.Ironically, the most important step I have taken to become a lawyer was working in a call center right aftergraduation in order to be able to submit the required payment. Once I got my license to practice in 2011, I workedas a corporate lawyer for couple of months. In 2012, after the numbers of civilians facing military trials increased,I joined a group called "No Military Trials for Civilians" with whom I experienced my first case before a militarycourt. This trial was a transformative experience since it helped me to realize how far behind the EgyptianJudiciary system is lagging with regards to ensuring basic fair trial rights. After such this experience, I haveworked with numerous NGOs where I found my passion in litigating cases related to freedom of expression andviolations based on real or perceived sexual orientation.Homosexuality in Egypt in not illegal. What are the members of the LGBTQ community accused of andwho accuses them in the first place?Indeed, homosexuality is not criminalized according to domestic laws in Egypt, however the LGBTQ communityhas been facing criminal charges of habitual debauchery, solicitation, and habitual prostitution, under LawNumber 10 of 1961 on Prostitution and Debauchery. Provisions of this law do not clearly enumerate the practicesthat are prohibited, and instead relies on vague terms to formulate the material element of the crimes used totarget members of the LGBTQ community, as there is no conclusive definition for debauchery within theEgyptian laws. As for who accuses them, as absurd as it may sound, there is a department in the Ministry ofInterior in Egypt called the Department of Protecting the Public Morality, or "Morality Police". This departmentusually tricks victims into meeting for fake dates and then arrest them.How do LGBTQ clients usually get in contact with you and what does a positive outcome of their casesdepend on?Ususally the victims' relatives, the victims’ friends, activists or NGO staff members report such incidents to us. Assoon we get to know where the victims have been detained, we arrange visits with them in their place ofdetention. In some cases clients contact us after they follow our previous work on cases, which has beendisseminated by the press or through social media. A positive outcome in such cases depends on combination offactors: the facts of the case itself, adequate representation, and the attention of the public.Are the accusations of debauchery and prostitution also used to silence or convict political opponentsin some cases in Egypt?Not really. Activists tend to face numerous other criminal accusations such as violating the laws that governprotests, inciting mobs, and displaying force.1/4Do the accusations under the presidency of Abdel Fattah El-Sisi differ from those under Musni Mubarakin terms of number and kind?The Law Number 10 of 1961 on Prostitution and Debauchery, which is used to target members of the LGBTQcommunity, was issued in 1961 meaning that the charges in such cases have not been any different over thepast 54 years. As for the number of cases, they have greatly increased over the past two years.Was sexual freedom, and the rights associated with sexual freedom, part of the demands during therevolution 2011 in Tahrir Square?No. The conservative way of thinking about homosexuality was still dominant to the collective mind of most ofrevolutionaries themselves in 2011.Is there a difference between male and female homosexuality or trans people in relation to accusationsand charges? If so, how would you explain this?Yes. Legally speaking, “habitual debauchery” is a crime that is attached to male prostitution, meaning that menwill be charged with this crime. Women, on the other hand, are charged with “habitual prostitution”. However,both crimes have the same material elements and the same penalties. The terms "debauchery" and"prostitution" used within the Law Number 10 of 1961, has nothing to do with society’s judgment on male orfemale homosexuality or the differences between male or female homosexuality. It is merely a linguisticdifference in Arabic that has been adopted by the legislators. There are more cases of males accused thanfemales, which could be attributed to so many factors including the way society considers male homosexualityas more shameful. Not to mention it is easier for male police officers to arrange fake dates to set up males ratherthan female members of the of the LGBT community. Regarding trans people, their charges comply with theirreproductive organs. That’s why, for example, a person who identifies as a female, but who was designatedmale at birth, might be charged with “habitual debauchery” and will be treated as a male in court and vice versa.What is the professional and personal status of lawyers in Egypt accepting the kind of clients as youdo?The majority of lawyers, prosecutors, and judges are not so familiar with the Law Number 10 of 1961 onProstitution and Debauchery. Moreover, the legal community remains part of the conservative society that tendsto see members of the LGBTQ community as sinners, regardless of the facts in their cases.How would you predict the future of the LGBTQ community in Egypt? Who can improve their legalsituation and how?Looking at the current situation, the upcoming years do not look promising. Yet, the legal situation could bechanged by many different groups: members of the LGBTQ community themselves, law practitioners, as well assupporting groups. Such a change could be achieved through: raising legal and fundamental rights awareness;arguing the unconstitutionality of the Law Number 10 of 1961 on Prostitution and Debauchery; and grabbing thepublic’s attention (domestically and internationally) to the violations committed against members of the LGBTQcommunity.This Interview was conducted by Anna-Theresa Bachmann and Jannik Rienhoff in July 2015. It will appear in aGerman translation in Forum Recht 4/15.LICENSED UNDER CC BY NC NDSUGGESTED CITATION  Bachmann, Anna-Theresa; Rienhoff, Jannik: Egypt: Homosexuality is legal – but notallowed, VerfBlog, 2015/8/24, http://verfassungsblog.de/egypt-homosexuality-is-legal-but-not-allowed/.Interview with Islam Khalifa, attorney in Cairo What does the judicial training in Egypt look like and what steps did you personally take to become alawyer?2/4Regulations in Egypt only allows one to practice law after becoming a member of the Bar Association of Egypt orbecoming a member of one of the judicial entities. However, no adequate training is given to law practitioners,neither attorneys nor judges, as both the Bar Association and judicial entities have long ago given up their role ofproducing competent individuals or developing the skills and legal knowledge of their members. Hence, in theabsence of any institutional preparation, it is entirely up to law practitioners whether to develop and evolve or not,as there is no mentoring in this regard. In fact, it is not at all difficult to get a license to practice law in Egypt: thechallenging part remains being able to competently handle your case as well as highlighting questionable laws.The Bar Association in Egypt, unlike most countries, does not require a mandatory exam or an obligatorypostgraduate course for admission. It only requires some documents and a payment, which is considered to bea large sum for fresh graduates.Ironically, the most important step I have taken to become a lawyer was working in a call center right aftergraduation in order to be able to submit the required payment. Once I got my license to practice in 2011, I workedas a corporate lawyer for couple of months. In 2012, after the numbers of civilians facing military trials increased,I joined a group called "No Military Trials for Civilians" with whom I experienced my first case before a militarycourt. This trial was a transformative experience since it helped me to realize how far behind the EgyptianJudiciary system is lagging with regards to ensuring basic fair trial rights. After such this experience, I haveworked with numerous NGOs where I found my passion in litigating cases related to freedom of expression andviolations based on real or perceived sexual orientation.Homosexuality in Egypt in not illegal. What are the members of the LGBTQ community accused of andwho accuses them in the first place?Indeed, homosexuality is not criminalized according to domestic laws in Egypt, however the LGBTQ communityhas been facing criminal charges of habitual debauchery, solicitation, and habitual prostitution, under LawNumber 10 of 1961 on Prostitution and Debauchery. Provisions of this law do not clearly enumerate the practicesthat are prohibited, and instead relies on vague terms to formulate the material element of the crimes used totarget members of the LGBTQ community, as there is no conclusive definition for debauchery within theEgyptian laws. As for who accuses them, as absurd as it may sound, there is a department in the Ministry ofInterior in Egypt called the Department of Protecting the Public Morality, or "Morality Police". This departmentusually tricks victims into meeting for fake dates and then arrest them.How do LGBTQ clients usually get in contact with you and what does a positive outcome of their casesdepend on?Ususally the victims' relatives, the victims’ friends, activists or NGO staff members report such incidents to us. Assoon we get to know where the victims have been detained, we arrange visits with them in their place ofdetention. In some cases clients contact us after they follow our previous work on cases, which has beendisseminated by the press or through social media. A positive outcome in such cases depends on combination offactors: the facts of the case itself, adequate representation, and the attention of the public.Are the accusations of debauchery and prostitution also used to silence or convict political opponentsin some cases in Egypt?Not really. Activists tend to face numerous other criminal accusations such as violating the laws that governprotests, inciting mobs, and displaying force.Do the accusations under the presidency of Abdel Fattah El-Sisi differ from those under Musni Mubarakin terms of number and kind?The Law Number 10 of 1961 on Prostitution and Debauchery, which is used to target members of the LGBTQcommunity, was issued in 1961 meaning that the charges in such cases have not been any different over thepast 54 years. As for the number of cases, they have greatly increased over the past two years.Was sexual freedom, and the rights associated with sexual freedom, part of the demands during therevolution 2011 in Tahrir Square?3/4No. The conservative way of thinking about homosexuality was still dominant to the collective mind of most ofrevolutionaries themselves in 2011.Is there a difference between male and female homosexuality or trans people in relation to accusationsand charges? If so, how would you explain this?Yes. Legally speaking, “habitual debauchery” is a crime that is attached to male prostitution, meaning that menwill be charged with this crime. Women, on the other hand, are charged with “habitual prostitution”. However,both crimes have the same material elements and the same penalties. The terms "debauchery" and"prostitution" used within the Law Number 10 of 1961, has nothing to do with society’s judgment on male orfemale homosexuality or the differences between male or female homosexuality. It is merely a linguisticdifference in Arabic that has been adopted by the legislators. There are more cases of males accused thanfemales, which could be attributed to so many factors including the way society considers male homosexualityas more shameful. Not to mention it is easier for male police officers to arrange fake dates to set up males ratherthan female members of the of the LGBT community. Regarding trans people, their charges comply with theirreproductive organs. That’s why, for example, a person who identifies as a female, but who was designatedmale at birth, might be charged with “habitual debauchery” and will be treated as a male in court and vice versa.What is the professional and personal status of lawyers in Egypt accepting the kind of clients as youdo?The majority of lawyers, prosecutors, and judges are not so familiar with the Law Number 10 of 1961 onProstitution and Debauchery. Moreover, the legal community remains part of the conservative society that tendsto see members of the LGBTQ community as sinners, regardless of the facts in their cases.How would you predict the future of the LGBTQ community in Egypt? Who can improve their legalsituation and how?Looking at the current situation, the upcoming years do not look promising. Yet, the legal situation could bechanged by many different groups: members of the LGBTQ community themselves, law practitioners, as well assupporting groups. Such a change could be achieved through: raising legal and fundamental rights awareness;arguing the unconstitutionality of the Law Number 10 of 1961 on Prostitution and Debauchery; and grabbing thepublic’s attention (domestically and internationally) to the violations committed against members of the LGBTQcommunity.This Interview was conducted by Anna-Theresa Bachmann and Jannik Rienhoff in July 2015. It will appear in aGerman translation in Forum Recht 4/15.LICENSED UNDER CC BY NC NDSUGGESTED CITATION  Bachmann, Anna-Theresa; Rienhoff, Jannik: Egypt: Homosexuality is legal – but notallowed, VerfBlog, 2015/8/24, http://verfassungsblog.de/egypt-homosexuality-is-legal-but-not-allowed/.4/4

Egypt: Homosexuality is legal – but not allowed

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Egypt: Homosexuality is legal – but not allowed

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